7.62 nato????

[smle2009]

Hi to all,
got this 7.62 in the post today from 6.5ms(thanks mate),headstamped FN 52,purple annulus and rather long bullet!(which has a slight magnetic attraction)
a bit puzzled by the 1952 date for a FN 7.62mm? the case length IS 51mm,my first thought when I first saw it was 7mm compromise but if my info is correct this was basically a T65 case necked down to 7mm and had a case lenght of 47mm.

Photo's are of complete round,round and bullet,base of bullet and headstamp.
Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

Tony

 

[Jimiles]

Tony,
This is most likely to be a 7mm Compromise (which is the .30" FA-T1E3 case necked down to accept the .280/30 bullet) but it could also be an early production Belgian 7.62 x 51mm. It didn't become the '7.62mm NATO' until the introduction of the NATO symbol until 1954.
I have a Belgian 7mm Compromise which has the same diagonal milling visible at the casemouth as shown on your example.
My 'F N 52' 7.62 x 51mm does not have any milling visible, nor does it have any annulus colour. That's not to say it doesn't have any milling - just that it's not visible, but I don't want to pull the bullet to find out.
If you can measure the bullet diameter I think that should clarify which round it is.
Jim

 

[TonyE]

Fn 52

I agree with Jim that the easiest way to tell is to measure it.

As he says, the 7mm Compromise was on the 51mm case length and used similar bullets to the 7mm HV and 2nd Optimum rounds. I have not seen a long proj. like that before except in tracer.

The attached picture shows the relationship between the rounds.
l. to r.:
.270
.280
.280/30
7mm 2nd Optimum
7mm High velocity
7mm Compromise
7.62x51 RG made T65

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Hi Jim & TonyE,
Many thanks to you both,my first thought was a 7mm compromise,but because of my (wrong) info I thought the 7mm comp had a case length of 47mm!!!! So over the moon with this round as I have a few 280/30's and a 7mm H/V!,and TonyE's photo confirms!
Tony,
Was there ever an A/P version of the 7mm compromise round?:crossedlips:

All the best
Tony

 

[TonyE]

7mm Comp

Glad it turned out to be what you hoped!

Yes, there was an AP, API, Observation, Grenade discharger and several types of ball, including lead cored, mild steel cored and of course the Belgian S12 bullet from the 7mm Mark 1z (280/30). It was also made in Canada. I have all of these and they are in the attached pictures, but I cannot remember which is which in the photo without digging each of the rounds out! Don't worry about the bullets, I have pulled them for weighing.

Regards
tonyE

 

[raymeketa]

The 7mm Compromise that I have in my collection has a 49.75mm case length. It uses the FAT1E3 case shortened so that the S12 bullet can be crimped and still maintain the 2.8" over all length of the T65E3 cartridge. It is headstamped FA 51. It's my understanding (Labbett & Mead) that the cartridges made in Britian, Canada, and Belgium are the same.

It's also my understanding that the "Compromise" was just that, a 7mm with the same OAL as the T65E3.

Ray

 

[smle2009]

Hi Ray,
that is very intresting,from my very limited info there is no mention of the U.S. being involved in this series of experimental rounds and if I recall correctly they were in 'competition' with the U.S. 7.62x51(.30"LR) development for the new round for 'nato' at the time.
As you know I am on a learing curve,very slowly most of the time!,with experimental SAA,so any more info on this and a photo of your FA 51 would be great

All the best

Tony

 

[raymeketa]

Tony

I'd have to search for the documentation I have for my cartridge but, from memory -

You are correct, there was fierce competition between the USA and Britian, Belgium, and Canada (BBC) regarding the proposed NATO cartridge. The USA was locked into the 30 caliber while BBC preferred the 280 or 7mm. All assumed that the trial results would determine the winning cartridge but by 1951/52 it became clear that the US was not going to budge even though many US Ordnance Officers agreed that a caliber smaller than 30 would be best. (This was true as far back as the 1920s and the 276 Pedersen). The US agreed to test a compromise cartridge but it was really only lip service because the senior officers never intended to adopt anything but the 30 caliber. Frankford Arsenal loaded up the cartridge I described, and supposedly "tested" it but the conclusions had already been reached. With the USA dominating NATO at that time, it was easy to see who would win and by 1953, BBC conceded.

Now, I only collect the US experimentals so I cannot say if the BBC Compromise cartridges were the same as those from Frankford Arsenal. If they tested different bullets they well could have different case lengths. Collectors such as Jim and the other Tony should know.

I'll take a photo tomorrow and post it.

Ray

 

[smle2009]

Many thanks Ray,
my learning curve got a whole lot quicker tonight! I had also presumed that tests of this ammo in the U.S. would have been with BBC manufactured ammunition,didn't give it a thought that the U.S. made their own for 'trials'
At the risk of opening a big can of worms for me!,were 270,280,280/30 ect also made in the States for trials/lip service?

Tony

 

[raymeketa]

Tony

I'm not aware of any of the other BBC cartridges ever being tested in the US. Project SALVO did include a Cal 27 but it consisted of the T1E3 case necked down with no other changes (there was also a duplex version with a long neck).

Ray

 

[Jimiles]

Ray,
I have a cartridge which is so similar to yours I'm sure it's probably one and the same although mine does have a green tip. However, it also has a caselength of just over 49mm. I found a reference to mine in an old Buttweiler catalogue where it was described as a 7mm FA-T1E3 and that it was loaded in 1953.
Although it has the same overall length I've never considered it to be a 7mm Compromise as it has a caselength which is a noticeable 2mm shorter.
Here are photos of both cartridges seperately but the difference would be much more obvious if they were photographed side by side. I don't have such a photo to hand but I could take and post one over the next few days if it would be a help to illustrate the difference.
Jim

 

[6.5MS]

I have an RG 53 with a nickel bullet - Apart from the obvious - what is the difference??

 

[TonyE]

The 7mm Compromise that I have in my collection has a 49.75mm case length. It uses the FAT1E3 case shortened so that the S12 bullet can be crimped and still maintain the 2.8" over all length of the T65E3 cartridge. It is headstamped FA 51. It's my understanding (Labbett & Mead) that the cartridges made in Britian, Canada, and Belgium are the same.

It's also my understanding that the "Compromise" was just that, a 7mm with the same OAL as the T65E3.

Ray

Sorry Ray, but you are a bit off there. The 7mm Compromise was only ever a 51mm case length. Check your Labbett & Mead again, page 15 "..A case length of about 2 in. (approx 51mm) gave an overall cartridge length of about 2.8 in (70.6mm)."

The attached picture shows an FA 52 7mm Compromise with an S12 type bullet and 51mm case length. The other two are an RG 53 Compromise and an RG 7.62mm for comparison. (Sorry about the picture quality but I used my scanner for quickness)

If you and Jim have an FA 7mm with a 49.5 (ish)mm case length then it is a copy of either the 7mm High Velocity or the 7mm Second Optimum. Case length of the HV was 49.5mm and the Second Opt 49.15mm. 1951 is a bit early for both types, but of course we don't know when it was actually loaded.

You can see the difference in case lengths in the second picture.

I need one of those 49mm FA loaded rounds myself, so if you know of a spare I shall be at St.Louis!

Cheers
Tony

 

[TonyE]

US 7mm

I have just had a quick look at the BBC Trials documents and there was no US made 7mm entered or fired.

The ball/AP rounds used were:

7mm Second Optimum:

Ball S12
AP Belgian
AP Canadian
AP with milled cannelure British

7mm Compromise

Ball S12 British
Ball flat base Canadian
AP flat base Canadian

.30

AP T93E1 US
AP T93E2 US
Ball T104E3 US
Ball M53 French
Ball R3 boat tailed French
Ball S77 boat tailed Belgian

Other rounds incuded were:
Tracer T102E1 US
Tracer TM53 French
Tracer UK
API T101E1 US
API UK
Observation UK

Regards
TonyE

 

[TonyE]

I have an RG 53 with a nickel bullet - Apart from the obvious - what is the difference??

The British bullets for the 7mm series trials were all GM or GMCS, and the Belgian bullets were CN or CNCS, but there was a large exchange of components between the two countries so you will find the British 7mm loaded with CN FN S12 bullets. Having said that, since the 7mm Mark 1z which we briefly adopted in 1951 had a CN S12 bullet, it must be presumed that we made a cupro-nickel jacketed bullet for the "production" ammunition.

Jim - I bet your green tipped FA 7mm has a British .280/30 Type B MS cored bullet in it.

Regards
TonyE

 

[raymeketa]

I dug out my FA cartridge that I was calling a 7mm Compromise and it is the same as Jim's, headstamped FA 51. I incorrectly remembered it having the Belgium bullet. It must have the British bullet (green tip) with steel core.

Photo below shows, left to right:

51mm, T104E1 Ball, FA 52 (for comparison)
49.75mm, 7mm ?, FA 51
43.45mm, 280/30, RG 50
51mm, Cal 27 Light Rifle, WCC 53

This is all getting confusing for me and I have only one of the "Compromise" cartridges. I can't imagine how you Brits keep up with all the variations on your side.

So, have I labeled mine incorrectly?? How should it be labeled?? Help!!

Ray

 

[Jimiles]

Ray,
I'm going with '7mm FA-T1E3'. If that's good enough for Robert Buttweiler it'll do for me....and it sounds impressive. The catalogue also made mention of the fact that it was actually loaded in 1953 despite the headstamp suggesting perhaps that they took the cartridge out of a box.
I don't want to wish my life away but roll on HWS III!
Jim

 

[TonyE]

7mm FA

Ray and Jim - The FA round appears to be a copy of the 7mm High Velocity, as the case length is nearer that than the Second Optimum. It for sure is NOT a 7mm Compromise as these were all 51mm length.

As the 7mm HV did not appear until 1952 in the UK, a loading date of 1953 at FA would be right.

Ray - It is not so hard to sort out the 7mm rounds, see my article in the October 2008 IAA Journal.

Re. HWS III. I was with Bill and Gene Scranton over Thanksgiving and Gene reckons he has about fifty or so more drawings to do and in the meantime they have to find a publisher (or do it themselves). Hopefully, this year!

Regards
TonyE

 

[raymeketa]

I suppose the designation given by Buttweiler is as good as any, maybe with "7mm HV" "7mm Comp" in parenthesis and a question mark.:tinysmile_hmm_t:

Tony - Yes, I remember your article very well. One of the best I've seen in the JOURNAL.

50 drawings for Gene could take 50 or 500 days. He works at his own pace. Bill and Frank are taking very good care of him, Frank says he even offered to babysit lest something bad should happen to delay things even further.:tinysmile_twink_t2: I wonder who will do the addendum since I'm sure one will be required as soon as it's published.

Ray

 

[Jimiles]

Tony,
I know it shares their 49mm(ish) caselength but I can't see how this green-tipped round (7mm FA-T1E3!) could possibly be a copy of the 7mm High-Velocity or the 7mm Second-Optimum as it's shoulder position is very different to both.
However, it is dimensionally identical to the 7mm Compromise in all aspects other than the slight reduction in caselength. This shortening wouldn't have any effect on it's ability to chamber in a weapon intended for the 7mm Compromise. I think it's got to be a US version of the Compromise.
Jim