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Another collector Raided

hicky1300

hicky1300

Well-Known Member
This may be old news to you all but I have been out of country & not able to keep in touch so my apologies.
Just been informed that another collector/seller (ex ebay & recent SA) has had his collection confiscated, PC removed etc.
Waiting to hear as to the reason that initiatted this raid.
As someone who has been raided due to a stupid mistake on my part but was left with collection & a `local record` I am getting a bit worried.
My collection is not very big & may not have much intrinsic value outside our small circle but I would be mortified to loose it as well as out of pocket!
Is there anyone out there (UK only please) in the know as to where we stand with our hobby from a legal point of view. Should I be looking at getting a FAC to cover my collection/collecting?
I have a shotgun licence a `local record`that did not prevent its renewal & a bit of a rapport with the local firearms officer. No other record apart from Military misdemeanors!
Thanks in advance & apologies again if going over old ground - but a bit concerned:tinysmile_cry_t4:
 
We have discussed legal issues recently (sorry cant remember the thread topic).
There are a a few separate elements to consider.
1. Collection of live ammunition subject to Section1 or 5 of the Firearms Act requires an appropriately conditioned Firearms Certificate.
2. Acquisition of Section 2 (shotgun) ammunition, requires a Shotgun Certificate
3. - The Rest - Possession of Inert ordnance of any type is not covered by legislation and neither is there any legislation requiring Free From Explosives (FFE) certification. And it is with uncertificated ordnance where problems with enforcing authorities are likely to occur.
I am not going to either defend or criticise the actions of any enforcer but would urge the BOCN community to present itself to the authorities as the sole professional body in the UK that represents the interests of the enthusiast. I have suggested in other posts the creation of an auditable, easy to run registration scheme for members and the running of a FFE scheme recognised as credible by all enforcers.
 
But! There`s always at least one. Doesn`t Sect 5 cover AP etc regardless of whether live or not? So assume a collector has an inert 7.92 AP round aren`t they in breach of FA sect 5?
 
No - there is a specific exemption for collectors to possess Sect 5 ammunition - it is found at Sect 5A(1) of the 1968 Firearms Act and allows collection of prohibited ammunition on a suitably conditioned Firearms certificate.
So yes you can possess AP ammunition on a FAC. Section 5A(3) allows the sale of prohibited ammunition between collectors in EU Member states where domestic legislation allows.
 
exat808 said:
No - there is a specific exemption for collectors to possess Sect 5 ammunition - it is found at Sect 5A(1) of the 1968 Firearms Act and allows collection of prohibited ammunition on a suitably conditioned Firearms certificate.
So yes you can possess AP ammunition on a FAC. Section 5A(3) allows the sale of prohibited ammunition between collectors in EU Member states where domestic legislation allows.
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Im in the process of applying for said licence.Will keep you up to press when/if it all comes together.
As for the raid on the collector,i know the full story and actually understand why it happened.:tinysmile_cry_t: A mistake was made and it snowballed from there. I still havnt heard why the other chap was busted a couple of weeks ago and im certainly interested in that one!

best

waff
 
exat808 said:
We have discussed legal issues recently (sorry cant remember the thread topic).
There are a a few separate elements to consider.
1. Collection of live ammunition subject to Section1 or 5 of the Firearms Act requires an appropriately conditioned Firearms Certificate.
2. Acquisition of Section 2 (shotgun) ammunition, requires a Shotgun Certificate
3. - The Rest - Possession of Inert ordnance of any type is not covered by legislation and neither is there any legislation requiring Free From Explosives (FFE) certification. And it is with uncertificated ordnance where problems with enforcing authorities are likely to occur.
I am not going to either defend or criticise the actions of any enforcer but would urge the BOCN community to present itself to the authorities as the sole professional body in the UK that represents the interests of the enthusiast. I have suggested in other posts the creation of an auditable, easy to run registration scheme for members and the running of a FFE scheme recognised as credible by all enforcers.
Click to expand...


I do like your ideas that you post Squire,but it could be a bit of a nightmare for those running the show though?
Have you spoken to the big cheeses about the idea? :)

best


waff
 
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have replied to waffenamt by PM due to sensitive nature of my response.
Generally the answer is Yes - the concept is being discussed elsewhere
 
Speak softly and carry a big stick. It just makes my hair stand on end to even hear about someone losing his/her collection. Keep as much on the QT as possible. That's all....Dano
 
Sorry but if nothing is wrong with what is being done why the need to be on the QT?It bothers me that to either an ignorant or zealous authority and/or joe public that responsible & legal persons should have to `scuttle about` like some secret sect - surely by being like that it enhances/reinforces ill concieved preconceptions?
Also given the accessible & easily traceable information the `QT` is only achievable if sites like this & SA shut down?
 
exat808 said:
No - there is a specific exemption for collectors to possess Sect 5 ammunition - it is found at Sect 5A(1) of the 1968 Firearms Act and allows collection of prohibited ammunition on a suitably conditioned Firearms certificate.
So yes you can possess AP ammunition on a FAC. Section 5A(3) allows the sale of prohibited ammunition between collectors in EU Member states where domestic legislation allows.
Click to expand...

There is nothing in the Firearms Act that grants exemption for collectors per se. What the Act says is that prohibited ammunition (and other Section 5 items) may be possessed with an appropriately varied FAC.

The important point is that the owner must have the FAC variation. If a non FAC holder has an inert AP (or incendiary or other Section 5) round, even though it is inert, it is an offence within the meaning of the Act. That is because the projectile is the offending item.

I have had an FAC varied for Section 5 ever since it was introduced, and it specifically states how many items I may hold of each type of Section 5 item, AP, incendiary, soft point etc, and includes a variation for any projectile covered by Section 5.

All those dealers offering AP and incendiary rounds as "inert" are asking for trouble if the projectiles are still original.

Regards
TonyE
 
hicky1300 said:
Sorry but if nothing is wrong with what is being done why the need to be on the QT?It bothers me that to either an ignorant or zealous authority and/or joe public that responsible & legal persons should have to `scuttle about` like some secret sect - surely by being like that it enhances/reinforces ill concieved preconceptions?
Also given the accessible & easily traceable information the `QT` is only achievable if sites like this & SA shut down?
Click to expand...
Hi Hicky, Nothing wrong with it, I just say why advertise if there is no value to it? Dano
 
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dano1917 said:
Hi Hichy, Nothing wrong with it, I just say why advertise if there is no value to it? Dano
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Unfortunatly, it is Joe public than run this country. It's all very well shouting and fighting your corner, but if the decision is made to enter your house and take away your collection, that is what will happen, no matter how much you fight it. I don't agree with it, just aware of it. Like Dano says, keep it down, no one who doesn't understand needs to know.
 
Hi All,
I would like to point out,again, that when is AP and incendiary is sold as inert on SA ect,it has been inerted by removal of the AP core and the incendiary material from the projectiles therfore perfectly legal to own!
Therfore the 'illegal even when inert' thing is a bit misleading,especially to a new collector who may be paniced into getting rid of a perfectly legal item of their collection!
Tony
 
Hmm - a bit to think about. Head down & legs crossed or apply for a FAC with sect 5 & stick head above parapet?
 
Section 5

I did say that some dealers were taking a chance if the rounds have the ORIGINAL projectiles.

I do not normally buy from SA etc., and I realise there is more awareness now of the law on AP and incendiary, but in the past thousands of inert Section 5 rounds have been sold to collectors.

I am also more cynical about some of these rounds. The only way to remove the core or the incendiary component of many rounds is by completely ruining the bullet and leaving little more than the envelope. An example is a .50 Browning API with a boat tailed core and the incendiary compound in the nose.

Why not join one of the collecting associations like the ECRA or IAA and after a period of time to establish a bona fide apply for an FAC?

Regards
TonyE
 
Hi TonyE,
I was not having a 'pop' at you,seen the 'even when inert' statment in other threads on site.
I just wanted to clear up a point that has caused some concern to new collectors in the past.
I know it is not ideal to have these projectiles inerted this way, but for some of us it is the only way to legally own these rounds. I do not even like having a 'rattle' in them but have spent the last two days putting ball bearings in the rounds in my collection,fairly instant way to prove they are inert,but due to the present climate I would rather be safe than sorry.

Cheers
Tony
 
Inert

No problem Tony, I did not think you were having a go at me, but I wanted to make the point clear about original projs.

I realise that for many people collecting inert is the only way to go, and I totally agree that a "rattle" is a good idea in those circumstances. However, people should not be put off by the bureaucracy of applying for an FAC.

Regards
TonyE
 
hicky1300 said:
Hmm - a bit to think about. Head down & legs crossed or apply for a FAC with sect 5 & stick head above parapet?
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Im going for it. Hightime i did too.
Ive nowt to hide and would rather be on the radar rather than an unwanted visit.
There are lots of advantages to said licence if you think about it.One being at least if the neighbours see people lurking in the woods at the back of my house(usually shed robbers and the like) then there will be a very fast response i would have thought,especially if mentioned there is a licenced ammo collector lives on the premises.

best

waff
 
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TonyE said:
There is nothing in the Firearms Act that grants exemption for collectors per se.

Tony - sorry if my choice of term "exemption" was inaccurate or mislead anyone :sad:
Here is a lift from the Home office Guidance to Police on Firearms Law -

3.29​
​
​
​
Section 5A(1) of the 1968 Act refers to
collectors and states that the authority of
the Secretary of State is not required for a
collector to possess, purchase, acquire, sell or
transfer any of the firearms or ammunition​

listed in section 5(1A) provided they have a
suitably conditioned, valid firearm certificate
or permit. The weapons and ammunition
listed under section 5(1A) are those in
categories (ix) to (xv) above. Section 5A(3)
allows collectors or their representatives
from another Member State to possess,
purchase or acquire (but not to sell or
dispose of) weapons and ammunition
controlled by subsection 1A if they are
recognised by the law of that State as
collectors or as a body concerned in the​
cultural or historical aspects of weapons.

Hope this clears it up !
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