Are these from a British No117 fuze?

[GeoffR]

These fuze fragments are from a (small) WW2 infantry training area, where is is believed 25 pdr guns were used, and the area later became a heavy AA site, with 3.7" guns. Other artillery pieces may also have been present.
Can anyone please identify these fragments to a particular fuze (No.117??) and so to the type of weapon in use?

Photo 1 (4 fragments) Curved length (bottom right fragment) from top to bottom = 55mm.
Markings on bottom left fragment: RC 1 40 CY8??

Photo 2 (single item) Top of 117 fuze? Diameter at top of milled bevel = 30mm

Photo 3 (5 fragments) No milled ring on these.
Curved length (from top to bottom) top left & top mid = 48mm
top right & bottom three = 50 or 51mm
Markings:
top left ?D 4-40 29??
top mid 14 88
top right CY 11/39
bottom CY.1 / 40 2.80

 

[ww2-collector]

yes No.117

 

[spotter]

i would say the ones with the machining around are from No119 fuzes ,the smooth ones for the No117 and the "screw in" collar with crushed striker cover from the no117

 

[GeoffR]

Thanks spotter and ww2-Collector.

That changes things a little for this site. I had thought most of this type of debris was from the AA guns but apparently not. A google search shows 117 and 119 fuzes were used over a wide time frame and in a wide variety of munitions, but I couldn't find where that variety is specified, also the differences between the two types and why two different types were needed - did they serve different purposes?

Could they have been used on 4" or 6" guns (there was a coastal battery some 5 miles away) or are 25 pdrs more likely?

Any pointers (internet or books) where I could find out more to answer those questions would be most welcome. Any ideas what the large numbers 2.80 refer to after the 1/40 date in the bottom three fragments of photo No.3? (As an aside, it must be a rarity to find three exploded fragments that join together)

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

As Spotter says. Somebody on this forum might be able to explain why the 117 & 119 were in use apparently at the same time in the same types of shell. I have seen the 117 and the 119 fitted to WW2 25 Pr HE. The 117 Mk 17/7 was still in use in the 1980s and perhaps even later. I believe that the 119 was made obsolete much earlier, not sure why. Perhaps the 117 was a better `all-rounder' as regards performance. Take a look at the fuze `stickies' posted by Spotter to give you an idea of introduction and obsolescence dates. I have also seen the 119 fitted to 18 Pr HE of WW2 vintage. Not sure whether it was No 117 or 119 fitted to a WW2 HE shell of about 8 inch calibre. I believe the 117 and 119 were also fitted to WW2 5.5 In HE shell and no doubt other calibres that I don't encounter. Could the `2.80' just be `280'? Because that and `1488' are probably filled lot numbers. These fuzes would have been stamped with empty and filled details, by manufacturer and filler codes, month/year of manufacturing and filling and by a filled lot number. The items I find are on beaches that were training areas in WW2 and the impact area for the fuzed shell was quite large, although there is never much uncovered at any one time. Please see my posts for beach finds / relics.

 

[collector]

India is still making the no.117 as seen here, one from the year 2000. Not sure if they sell them for display purpose or in complete working state.
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/fz/4.htm
http://www.sandeepmetalcraft.com/page.php?text=PRODUCTS_FUZES

The 117 was also used for 75-mm, 25-pdr, 5.5-inch (80 lb shell),105mm, 155-mm and 7.2-inch, 4.2-inch mortars.

The 117 is a D.A. fuze (direct action). The Graze action, which was the purpose of the 119, had been declared obsolete, even during the war as there was an improvement in the technique used, when they developed the no.231 fuze.
Many 119 fuzes were turned back/converted to DA fuzes which they gave the name 117 C.

And the no.118 was use for naval.

 

[GeoffR]

Collector, many thanks for the additional detail concerning the 117 & 119 fuzes. What I had thought might provide good identification for the area I am dealing with now looks to be anything but that, with these two fuzes being used in such a wide range of weapons and over such a long timeframe. At least I can rule out the AA guns in the immediate area!

 

[GeoffR]

Ammotech, many thanks for your response. Having had a look at your beach finds, it looks like we are dealing with similar sites - East Anglian coastal mud and sand (primarily the former) used as a training area, but after 1945. As mentioned in my 'introduce yourself' entry I am trying to use the objects found to work out when it was in use and who used it. I had hoped the fuze fragments would pin point a particular weapon, but alas no, as these two fuses appear to have been used over such a long period and on a wide variety of artillery pieces. It looks like I will have to resort to the variety of copper driving band fragments with a post in the 'projectiles' section to see if that narrows things down a little, but I am not hopeful.

 

[collector]

Just took a better look at the pictures and it does look like that they did practice using the left overs from WW2.
the pictures:
top right CY 11/39 was filled in Chorley (famous filling station) in November 1939
bottom CY.1 / 40 2.80 This one apparently in January 1940

Also a piece from 1988.. What a great place to run around.

But pinning the one such fuze to a particular weapon is impossible, these were used on a wide variety of ammo.

 

[TimG]

The 117C was introduced solely as an emergency measure during June 1940 for a period of about three months. There was a shortage of detonators for the 119 and thus their bodies were assembled as DA only, the graze element was omitted.
The 119 in the guise of the 119B served onto at least 1962.
There was a No. 138 fuze for use in 3” mortars and possibly the 4.2”, which used a similar mechanism to the 117. However, an 117 would not function in a mortar as it utilises a centrifugally operated shutter.

TimG

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

Hello All. For Collector - I am fairly sure that `14 88' is a filled lot number rather than a date. For Geoff - why after 1945? Everything I find supports that the N Norfolk beaches were used for training during the war and probably not afterwards. With the exception of one .303 case dated 1917 and brass strips dated 1975 from an L3 Slab demolition charge (used by EOD personnel for destroying suspected blind shell) everything else I have found there has been dated between 1936 - 1944.

 

[collector]

unfortunately I must disagree with this statement: "emergency measure during June 1940 for a period of about three months"
and ofcourse I have the proof to back this up, as there is one here, a 117C from 1942.

The need for the graze action, wasn't really required anymore the longer the war took, as there were many good inventions, developments made during. Which meant they were converted back for a longer period of time and not just the three months.The improved fuzes which should have fully replaced the 119, were a bit/lot more expensive to make, look at the 231(just one example), the technique used inside, quite difficult and expensive to make. Thats why they were often made from cheaper metals.
The 119 had for the above reason still use, but were hardly ever fired 'cap on'.

Indeed they kept and made the 119B until 1962, similar to the 117, which they still made up until at least 2000. This has more to do with using them for practice as these are still cheap and easy to make. Ofcourse they(mainly no.117) were also still in use in several other wars in other countries after ww2, because of its simplicity and easy manufacturing.
examples is the no.117 R1M1 and as mentioned previously India still makes them.

 

[GeoffR]

AMMOTECHXT. My apologies, 'after 1945' should have read 'not after 1945', but I can't find the edit facility!
I quite agree with the 14 88 not being a date as the items were all found long before 1988. The area was in use, in some form, in the late C19 based on fired Snider and Martini Henry bullets. Cartridge cases date from 1916 to 1944, with many blanks. The most numerous items I am sure come from WW2 when it was used as a small training area, but I am coming to the conclusion that some of the items were not fired locally but have been washed ashore from elsewhere.

 

[GeoffR]

TimG, thanks for that useful comment about no connection between the 117 and mortars. At least I can remove mortars from the list of weapons.

 

[collector]

I'm looking through all my books and documents as we speak, and I'm not at all familiar with mortars, but what I do know that there were mortars in use during ww2 which used centrifugal spin.
The M2 4.2 inch mortar for example. The 4.2 inch mortar has an obturating ring or driving band made of a softer material. Mortar bombs also use obturating rings not only to provide a seal around the projectile, but also for a centrifugal spin.
The centrifugal spin made sure the range exceeded from 3 km to 4 km.

There are several kinds of 4.2 inch mortars and I'm talking about the one pictured here. I have seen these around with several different DA fuzes on them.

pictures from the interweb, no copyright.

Still looking for the one with a no.117 fuze on it.
So please don't be that fast excluding the 4.2 inch mortar.

That all said, as mentioned, mortars are not my thing at all, I've just seen it somewhere and still not sure where.
the search continues.

 

[EOD]

Rifled mortars are still in use today with the 120mm Brandt system and also the Russian are using such systems.

Even if a fuze is spin armed it does not mean that all such fuzes can be used anywhere as almost every fuze is adapted to the particular spin forces (centrifugal forces) and also to the setback forces.
All is depending on the propelling charge (and acceleration - the setback), the rifling and the projectile size . Means a fuze of a high velocity gun hardly will work on a large caliber howitzer or a mortar.

Until there is a manual that is showing the No117 being mounted to 4.2" mortars we can exclude it.

 

[TimG]

The British 4.2 mortar was smooth bore, the HE round used either a 152 or 152A fuze (it might subsequently have used the 162). The thread diameter on the 152 is 1.375". The 117 fuze has a 2" thread diameter. The 117 fuze requires a minimum spin of 1800 - 2000 rpm to arm it, furthermore the spin needs to be maintained until impact for the fuze to function. From the foregoing it should be seen that the two don't go together.

TimG

 

[TimG]

Collector, you're correct, my statement regarding the production is wrong. Having researched the matter a bit it would appear there was then a shortage of 117 fuzes and once again 119s were converted. How many times this occurred I don't know. From the attached summary of contracts one can see that production was short lived. I've no idea of the time scale or period of the extract, but because of the running totals would expect early in the war.

Your fuze was made by Acme Wringers, it is unusual in that the month of manufacture is not stamped. Nice to see the yellow paint remains.

GeoffR - Approved use of 117 & 119 fuzes - (early WWII)

B.L. 4.5", 60 pr, 5.5", 6" Field Gun, 6" How., 8" How., 9.2" Field Gun, 9.2" Coast Gun, 9.2" How., 12" How.
Q.F. 3" How, 18 pr & 25pr.

TimG

 

[GeoffR]

TimG, thanks that's quite a list. The 25pr guns were known to have been used 'for realism' in this infantry training area. I will now have to check on the Harwich coastal defence guns whose fired debris could well have been washed ashore.
Geoff

 

[Bonnex]

Tim,

Your statement regarding limited approval was in line with OB Proc 7113-II 28/6/1940. It was the OB intention to limit their approval to a period necessitated by the shortage of detonators and filling capacity. However within days of that OB meeting a List of Changes entry extends conversion to half a dozen marks of the 119. The Indian equivalent of RAOS has a nice section on the 117C.

Makes you wonder if anything important was happening in June 1940 to prompt these emergency measures!