British 12 Pdr to 6" cases with external primers

[tigbrand]

Hi all, I'm trying to make a list of all cases in British service which used the external knurled primer and had the three tabs to close the case mouth. can anyone help especially with the 4 inch naval cases? These are the easy ones, I think the 4.7 to 6 inch guns were all all emergency use in the Boer war, please add or correct any wrong bits!
12 pdr 4cwt
12 pdr 8cwt
12 pdr 12cwt
12 pdr 18cwt
15 pdr QF?? No external primer but tabbed mouth??
4 inch naval,various marks, which marks though?
4.7 inch Boer war period
5 inch Boer war period
6 inch Boer war period
Thanks for any help,cheers Tig.

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

Hi Tig, finally got around to digging out a few cases, will post as they come to hand! These are 12pdr 8cwt, as you suggest external primer and fitted with a closing cup. Length 200mm, rim 105mm and mouth 86mm. At least one is dated 1894!

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

Pictured is what I think is a 4in Mk1 case, although dated 1904. Length 370mm, rim 145mm and mouth 114mm.
This mark fits the description, my understanding is the 4in Mk4 used a longer case, without external primer. The Mk4 also came in fixed and separate loading types.
Pictured alongside the 12pdr 8cwt.

Found a Mk4 case, separate loading, but with a flush primer, length 494mm.

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

Here we have the 4.7in, length 404mm, rim 155mm and mouth 122mm.

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

Finally from me, the 6in, length 404mm, rim 197mm and mouth 170mm. This case appears to have had additional closing cup cutouts added when reloaded. Pictured alongside the 4.7in for comparison.
couple of pictures of the brass cap fitted for storage added, I think there was a leather and wood handle to remove it before loading.

 

[tigbrand]

Hi, excellent pictures and information. Just what I am after. I have three 12 pdr 8cwt cases, not common but found all in the last year,and one of them today in an antiques shop. I also have the 4" MkIV ,mine dated 1915,but is restoration in progress as it was painted black for some reason. I also have the 4.7" dated 1901. The 6" isn't common,as is the closing disc.I have more pics to add when i'm home. thanks for the post,much appreciated,Cheers Tig.

 

[Burney Davis]

And an example of a 15pr. No protruding primer, but mouth tabs.

 

[tigbrand]

Hi D, first time I have seen that case in 30 plus years of collecting,exceptionally rare. Do you have a 12 PDR 4cwt case you could post pictures of? Believe it looks similar with a no 1 primer. Thanks for posting. Tig.

 

[Burney Davis]

I thought I would add to the pictures of 15pr cases for completeness Tig.

The picture below shows an original German made case (left), a German made case reused by the Brits with mouth tabs added (middle) and the British made case (right).



The picture below shows a comparison between the 15pr case and that for the 12pr 4cwt.



And finally the base of the 12pr 4cwt.

 

[tigbrand]

Excellent pictures and nice to see the comparison between some very scarcely seen cases. As with the 15pdr, I have never seen the 4cwt case before. Thanks for adding to the thread.
Tig.

 

[Gspragge]

My 4" case - 14 3/8" Lgth.

 

[Burney Davis]

I have attached a picture of another British case that used the protruding primer/adapter.



It is a 4.7 inch case for the Mk VI gun. Originally a 4.7 inch case for the Mk I – IV guns, dated 1916 made by Vickers, Sons and Maxim, it has been modified by being cut down to 2.975 inches and designated 4.7 inch, Mk VI gun, Short.

“The QF 4.7 inch Mk VI designation was given to Army QF 4.7 inch Mk I to IV guns converted to using bag charge with a short obturation case. The intention was to reduce the need for brass cartridge cases and it was hoped to improve accuracy. This approach did not appear to have been very successful and as a consequence was made obsolete in May 1922”

(The above excerpt taken from David Ibbetson’s book on British Artillery Ammunition, Volume 3 Quick Fire, page 864 with reference to the original case on page 841.)

This case has been sadly neglected over its life, but a rare case.

Another for your list Tony!

 

[tigbrand]

Another I have never seen or heard of, it would only show in handbooks for a short time. You could easily think it was trench arted. It doesn't seem to show any marks to show the conversion?

 

[Burney Davis]

Another I have never seen or heard of, it would only show in handbooks for a short time. You could easily think it was trench arted. It doesn't seem to show any marks to show the conversion?

If you look carefully you will see the case was originally marked with "II". These cases were never marked with the gun details. So the conversion has added the gun details and barred out the original "II" mark, replacing with "I"

 

[Burney Davis]

I have attached pictures below of the original ‘long’ 6 inch Naval case.



This case is one of the very few in British service that was made in two parts and screwed together, as can be seen by the line towards the base of the case. (Ref David’s book , page 897)

The pictures below are of a later 1914 dated case which was fully drawn. It is the same length as the Mk I but has no closing tabs at the mouth. Strictly speaking at this date a case of this length should not exist, as in 1900 an order was given to reduce the length of the cases to 15.9 inches. It’s possible this case was made for an overseas contract order.

 

[tigbrand]

Hi D, I have only seen the short 6" case,so another rare beast. I am trying to assemble this info into a list, but it keeps growing! Attached, my 4" MkIV after restoration.

 

[Andy Naude]

My humble contribution.

12 Pounder 12 CWT Mk 1



4.7" Mk 1





4.7" Mk 2




6" Mk 3

 

[Dandebur]

Hello
@ Burney Davis
Thanks for your explanions about this case. I have it for many years ago and also have seen 2 in other collections, but nobody knew the reason of this small length. Now I have at last the answer.
Many thanks again.
@ Tigbrand.
A very interesting thread you have started. Perhaps, you can add to your list the 12PR 12 Cwt FA ( Fixed Ammunition ). Naturely no tabs at the mouth but external primer as the 12 PR 12 Cwt.
Please see my post for the pictures.
Dandebur.
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/97496-12-Pr-12-Cwt-fixed

 

[Dronic69]

Evening All,

Spotted this case today - and since this thread focuses on British related protruding case primers...

It appears to be a British 3" naval case dated 1914 with no gun related calibre markings, and has a Royal Labs protruding primer dated 5/01....... first impressions is that the primer is not the correct one (although it does screw into the case)

Thoughts - incorrect primer?

Unusual, perhaps not a common case to find.

Case Dimensions:
Length: 39 cm (15")
Case diameter: 3" (7.62cm)
Base diameter: 4" (10.4cm)

Obviously not shortened as the mouth tabs are there.

Cheers
Drew

 

[ydnum303]

Drew,
Is this not a 12 Pdr 12 Cwt? Dimensions seem to fit.