British L48 and L67 baton gun variants

[reccetrooper]

The RSAF Enfield built baton round guns utilising 1.5” No.4 Mk.1* signal pistols as the base weapon to which an extended barrel and steel stock was attached.

The L48 series was smoothbore. I believe there was an L48A1 and an L48A2 variant.
The National Army Museum website shows the experimental XL48E1.

The L67 series was rifled. Introduced in Northern Ireland from October 1974 with the L5A3 baton round. I believe there were L67A1, L67A2, L67A3, and L67A4 variants.
The L67A4 was deployed with the L5A7 baton round as recently as Operation Herrick in Afghanistan. (Source online DOMILL report from 2008)

There is a lot of misinformation on the internet about these guns, so does anyone have reliable information that states what the differences were between the different variants?

PM me if you don’t want to post on here. Thank you.

 

[reccetrooper]

This photo from the internet shows what I think are an L48 variant and L67 variant being used alongside each other. Note particularly the different barrels and sights.

 

[adammack]

Thanks for starting this thread. This series of weapons, and their associated ammunition have always fascinated me. Details online are scant to say the least. I have had to buy old copies of Jane's from the '70's to find any actual facts on the L67 series. I recall around 2008, Stringtown supplies had deactivated ones for £150. I hesitated and lost out. Major regret!! I had always assumed that they were initially trialed in Hon Kong with wooden rounds (L1A1?). Strange wee guns!

 

[reccetrooper]

Adammack, if your copies of Jane’s have any info on the L48 & L67 variants (or other baton guns, and baton or CS rounds), I’d appreciate if you could scan or photograph them and drop me a message.

I know from period photos that there are a few barrel profile variations, sight variations, and stock variations, but I don’t know what combinations each of the variants had.

I don’t know anything about the deacts that Stringtown sold, but I am aware that some fake guns were fabricated from surplus barrels fitted to No.4 Mk.1* signal pistols, by a UK dealer, and sold on the deact market.

I’m not aware what guns were used in Hong Kong with the L1A1 and L1A2 wooden baton rounds, but I suspect they may have been Federal Riot Guns, possibly supplied by Civil Protection 1946 Ltd. (See below)

Interestingly, the first Federal Gas Riot Guns were actually refurbished WW1 surplus British Webley & Scott No.1 Mk.1 signal guns that had long barrels and wooden stocks. Federal scrubbed the markings and chrome plated the guns before selling them under their own name. The first Federal tear gas cartridges were loaded in WW1 surplus signal cartridges that had had the signal pyrotechnic removed.

After WW2, Federal products were sold throughout the British Commonwealth by Civil Protection 1946 Ltd, a London based company, under the Civil Protection name. It is thought that the Federal/Civil Protection wooden baton round was the inspiration for the L1A1 wooden baton rounds that were made for use in Hong Kong.

Another interesting snippet is that the WW1 W&S No.1 Mk.1 signal guns were used in the early years of the troubles by the British Army, and also used by the RUC in the Battle of the Bogside in 1969, when the RUC were authorised to draw stocks of CS from the military.

 

[adammack]

 

[reccetrooper]

Thank you adammack. What year Janes are these from ?

Interesting that it shows the experimental XL48E1, and that the rounds shown with it in the photo are Proof rounds.

Also interesting that it confirms my thoughts that the wooden baton rounds (ie L1A1, L1A2) were based on the American design (ie Federal).

 

[reccetrooper]

Photo shows 1.5” CP wood baton (ie Federal wood baton marketed by Civil Protection 1946 Ltd) alongside an L2A2 from the early 1970’s, and a current L60A2 AEP (Attenuating Energy Projectile)

 

[adammack]

Thanks Reccetrooper. The images are taken from the 1976 edition of Jane's Infantry Weapons: Ed Denis Archer. I'm glad that you found them useful. As you noted, it's strange to see the XL weapon and the Proof rounds (I'd love to get one of those!) I have found that earlier editions have more details of this weapons system, subsequent pressings have almost none due to obsolescence and repetition. It's a fascinating area of small arms, the British Riot Control weapons. Rarely has ammunition and it's use provoked such a deep negative reaction. In some circles, the words "Rubber Bullets" are as synonymous as "Dum-Dum" bullets are as a symbol of Imperialist technological brutality! To me, they are interesting objects, their development and use being somewhat shrouded in secrecy. I have a modest collection, the pieces I am most pleased with are an L2A2 round, dated 10-71 (a month after I was born), and a 38mm MK2 C.S case from 10-79. As a collector, I rarely see anything other than the L60 & L21 series come up for sale. The L2 rounds I have seen offered have had ridiculous prices (£90 anyone)! I usually source inert rounds from the usual online sites like quickfireauctions. Arms fairs North of the Border simply do not exist! I am always on the lookout for any CS rounds, closing caps and any drill, proof or armourers rounds of any and all Marks. One final note Reccetrooper, have you came across any manuals or instruction booklets on the L48 or L67 weapons? Thanks!

 

[reccetrooper]

Prices of a lot of the Troubles era baton rounds have risen steadily over the past few years. I think there are more collectors of Troubles collectables in NI now, certainly most of the spare items I’ve sold on eBay and Quickfire have gone to buyers in NI.

I’m also on the look out for Proof and Drill variants, have been looking for several years with no luck. The only Drill variant I’m aware of is the L23A1. I’m not aware of any armourers variants.

The 1984 SAT Pam No.13 Grenades and Associated Weapons has training info for the L48A1/A2 and L67A1. The L67 is also covered in the 1995 and 2001 pamphlets. Copies of these pamphlets are available from the eBay seller coldwarpams2014

 

[adammack]

Doing a bit of further reading, I found this image with accompanying blurb:

• "Captain Young of the King's Own Scottish Borderers holds the British Army's new anti riot weapon, the rubber bullet, which was used recently in the new Lodge Road area of Belfast, Northern Ireland during riots in 1970".
  
  Army sources claim that Rubber Bullets, were introduced in August 1970. Although I'm certain that they were used prior to this date, and that ammunition has loading data before 08-70. You will notice he holds a No4 MK1/1 pistol and a L2 series proof round (The purple stripe indicates this). I can't imaging being mad enough to fire this! Broken wrists all round!
  

 

[ron3350]

I thought that a purple stripe meant Experimental rather than proof. Who can confirm this?

I realise a purple stripe on rifle and handgun cartridges denotes a proof round .
I have the purple stripe on a 51mm blue Practice mortar, a 51mm exptl fuze and a 1.5" wood baton cartridge.
I show the baton round here as it is odd and interesting. It has a wooden projectile.
Looks like someone made a round from components but is possibly a factory experimental?

Headstamp is: RG 8/64.
Painted on side is: 1.5 INCH BATON ROUND L1A1
Looks a bit crude but has 2 purple stripes on the case side.

Original case was a red striped SPRA 11-66 A/RIOT IRRIT. LOT 1 with a reg No hard to read.

 

[adammack]

Hi Ron3350. Yes, I think I made an error in stating that the round in the Press picture was a Proof round. Purple would seem generally to indicate experimental ammunition as opposed to Proof. That's an odd round you have. Quite early dates for Baton and Irritant rounds. Maybe for use in Hong Kong or Aden?

 

[reccetrooper]

adammack, he purple stripes indicate experimental, and would usually be expected to have a designation such as XL2E1, however, the press photo you show of Captain Young is not very clear, and in another of the published press photos it is apparent that the baton round he is holding is a ‘specification’ round, the case does not have X or L2 markings, but is marked SPEC.

I have a SPEC marked casing (quite worn and faded) and I know of one other person (on here) that also has one in his collection.
The case marking is ROUND A/RIOT 1.5 IN SPEC

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

Purple does indeed denote experimental ammunition. On a visit to Hereford No 1 AIDU (Ammunition Inspection and Disposal Unit, as it was known before it became 11 Ordnance Battalion (EOD) RAOC in about 1980) in about 1979 I and my colleagues were allowed to fire a Federal Riot Gun. It was explained to us that its use was for riot control and that to minimise serious casualties it was supposed to be fired at the ground in front of rioters, rather than straight at them, so that it could bounce onto their legs. I believe at the time it was designated 1.5 Inch calibre but that was changed to 38 mm when the UK adopted Metric over Imperial weights and measures. It was only gunpowder as a propellant but gave quite a kick.

 

[Muskey]

Hi Adammack, thanks very much for your scanned images, after researching UK Baton Rounds for over 30 years, that's the first time I've seen an image of a production L5A1 Baton cartridge! These must have been produced for a very short period as a Lot 1 XL5E1 I have (which by convention is the direct predecessor to the L5A1) has a fill date of 9/72, and the earliest L5A3 I have is a Lot 4 fill date 4/74. So the L5A1 has to have been first produced sometime between these dates, during which it was also replaced by the L5A2 (shown on this forum previously by Ron3350), which itself was replaced by the L5A3. The section is also very interesting as it confirms the larger propellant charge container found in the L2, L3, L8 (blank) and XL5E1 was used in the L5A1. What isn't clear in the photo is the closing wad. It doesn't look like crimped card, as in the XL5E1, but more solid and smooth with a very square base. To fit properly it would also have to be shorter than the L5A3 / L5A4 aluminium roll topped top wad because of the larger propellant container. I have a soft white rubber 1.5" top wad with rifling marks that fits the bill and may be from this style cartridge. Attached is an image with the aluminium and soft rubber top wads behind an example of the larger propellant container from an L2A2, Pete.

 

[Muskey]

Hi Ron, can I ask you two questions about previous images you've shown? What is the fill date, headstamp and Lot Number on the L5A2 Baton cartridge that you own, and what is the fill date and headstamp on the Lot 1 L5A3 Baton cartridge you own. I have an L1A1 wooden baton cartridge very similarly marked to your own, manufactured from the same experimental irritant cartridge cases. My cartridge has a small but significant difference to yours; whereas yours appears to be straight sided, mine has been machined up the casewall to give the distinctive lip seen on the L5A3 and all the production rounds prior to it. The un-modified Irritant cartridge case shown in the attached image has the purple 'experimental' stripes air brushed on, whereas the L1A1 has the stripes airbrushed up to where the machining starts, and then hand painted in the same colour for the rest of the case length. The experimental Irritant Cartridge shown was produced when the L2 card cased irritant cartridges were still on issue. The slight modification between our two L1A1 wooden baton cartridges may suggest an experimental design improvement. I've also shown one of the '1.5 Inch Baton Spec.' cartridges discussed previously, which were to be designed as generic and reloaded to different specifications. Mine has XL2E2 written in marker on the case head to show the current load. Photo's of discussed items attached, Pete.

 

[ron3350]

Muskey
Here is the information you requested. These all came from UK or Ireland pre 1990? and I bought them from a dealer as a wooden cased set showing the range of projectiles and batons used against rioters. Had S&W items too so a large selection.

My L5A2 MR round is 4 SPRA 8-73 with headstamp 4/73 FPL so made by Floform Ltd, Wales.

My L5A3 MR rounds are in a strip of 5 all with same lot and load date 8 SPRA 8-77. Stripcaps marked. SV 2924. KPL 19 76 in circle.
Headstamps vary so they used old cases? 6/76, 9/76, 10/76 & 11/76 all cases made by FPL.

The wood baton has an o-ring and is 145mm long- shown just for interest. 2 extra old photos of collection items.

 

[reccetrooper]

Hi Pete.

The L5A1 Lot 1 shown in Janes has a 3-7 visible. It’s safe to assume it’s March 1973 as that falls between your XL5E1 Lot 1 9/72 and Ron’s L5A2 Lot 4 8/73.

 

[Muskey]

That's brilliant Ron, very useful in developing a timeline, thank you. Please ignore the first headstamp in my previous post, it's a 'techno-blip' that I can't seem to delete & not related to the thread! The Belfast Newsletter newspaper issued a story on the 11th August 1972 on the back of an MoD briefing that this was the first issue of plastic baton rounds operationally to troops in Northern Ireland, and that they would be used alongside the L2A2 rubber baton rounds, which they did not intend to phase out at that stage. This means, as suspected, the L3A1 Long Range was the only plastic baton round on issue initially & was used to complement the rubber L2A2, however it also means the L5 Medium Range may have been phased in so that at one stage L2, L3 and L5 would all have been tactical options at one point. This could make sense as the L2 was always an 'area' weapon in that they were ricocheted off the ground in volleys to bowl over the front line of rioters, with the L3 and L5 used as direct fire against specific targets at long and medium ranges respectively. Plastic Baton Rounds were used very sparingly whilst the L2 was still on issue, and up to that point were only issued to specific unit supervisors. The first plastic baton round was not actually fired operationally during a riot until February 1973, and only 259 were fired operationally in riots up to the phasing out of the L2A2 in 1975. In contrast, 55,834 L2 rubber baton rounds were fired operationally between their introduction in 1970 until they were phased out in 1975.

 

[Muskey]

Hi George, excellent, thank you. Another missing piece of the jigsaw filled in! Apologies, we must have been typing at the same time while I was writing the reply to Ron, but that again fits in nicely to the timeline, Pete.