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Call for help: info and pictures wanted on EOC and Japanese contract ammunition

O

ogreve

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

I'm currently busy writing the second half of an article on early IJN ammunition for the Cartridge Researcher (and other places to be published). There are some research points in it that have to do with British manufacture. I'm hoping to get as many of those resolved before handing over the second half for publication, so I might as well start well in time with researching them.

I'm hoping anyone can possibly provide answers to the following, or perhaps point me to people who are likely to know the answers.

First up, are questions about items manufactured by EOC (= Elswick Ordnance Company):
-The EOC manufactured casings that I have seen that were dated, all were dated between 5/98 and 8/01. This is done purely by seen specimens, so the era is likely to have been slightly longer. Does anyone have pictures (or knowledge otherwise) of earlier and/or later dates on them? I'm trying to (roughly) box-off the era of EOC manufacture and any and all specimen seen can be helpful.
-Very important, perhaps: most of the EOC cases have the letters 'TD' below the date. These appear in two different styles. One being 'T.D' and the other being a small capital 'T' inside a large capital 'D'. Do you know what these letters indicate? For all I know they could be common EOC inspection marks, or they could be very important for the article. I'd really like to know their meaning before publishing the article.
-Does anyone have any knowledge of the EOC contracts, or do they know anyone who does, or possibly any archive where I could research this?
-Does anyone have pictures of EOC manufactured casings for the Japanese contract?

Secondly, there are different early cases. Not to spoil the fun already, but at least the 47x131R cases with additional case groove (often 'Cf' marked) have my particular attention:
-Does anyone have pictures of more of the 'Cf' marked 47x131R cases?
-Has anyone ever seen other calibres than the 47x131R calibre, provided with 'Cf' marking and Japanese markings?

Finally: Any and ALL pictures of such early IJN ammunition are very welcome for my research. I'm trying to solve some intricate puzzles regarding the various markings and combinations thereof and each seen specimen helps me a lot. ESPECIALLY since my current research has wound down to minute differences in anchor styles and combinations of markings.
If you have an item as described above, or if you have pictures thereof, no matter how many (the more, the merrier!) can you please send them to me or add them as a reaction to this thread?

Thanks a lot in advance for any and all help you can provide there.

Cheers,
Olafo
 
A comment on the monogram EOC - in the period you are interested 1890s to 1900s (and beyond into the Great War). EOC was the monogram for Sir W.G. Armstrong, Whitworth & Co., Elswick, Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

The Elswick Ordnance Company ceased to be an independent entity in 1863 when it merged with W.G. Armstrong Hydraulics to become Sir W.G. Armstrong & Co.

Armstrong & Co. merged with Charles Mitchell & Co. in 1882 to become Armstrong, Mitchell & Co., which in turn merged with Joseph Whitworth & Co. in 1897 to become Sir W.G. Armstrong, Whitworth and Co. more commonly known just as Armstrong Whitworth.





Tom.
 
Hi Tom,

Thanks a lot for your answer, that was very useful!
Using that information, I searched a bit further and came a.o. across this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elswick_Ordnance_Company
So, it seems the name EOC was still in use then, be it not as an independent entity, but rather as the armaments branch of Armstrong Whitworth.
Good information. I'll try to see what I can dig up using "Armstrong Whitworth" as search terms too.

In the meantime... I've still not managed to find out what "T.D" stands for. I have a 2 page excerpt of the 1915 Treatise on British ammunition. The T.D marking more or less appears in the location where the excerpt states that one would find the case filling markings (i.e. CF, CR, PF, PR). The British 57x306R case headstamp that is shown in the above mentioned Wikipedia article has a "P.F" marking. Note the similarity in the usage of the single 'period' in that abbreviation, i.e. not "P.F." but "P.F". The same is the case for the "T.D" marking (i.e. "T.D" and not "T.D.").
Could it perhaps be an indication that falls in the same line? It would seem logical that these cases were not shipped abroad loaded (unless they were shipped as fully assembled rounds). Possibly "T.D" is an indication for the case being empty and tested or so?!?

Does anyone know the answer to this and/or the other things asked in my initial post?
Also, does someone perhaps have the complete treatise as PDF for me?

Cheers,
Olafo
 
image.jpgimage.jpgI thought to add a couple of pictures of a 57x306R Japanese case alongside an early British case for comparison. Hope this helps in a small way.
 
Hi,

Geert: thanks for the link to the treatise!
I tried to look for the T.D marking but I didn't manage to find it. :(
I've still got no idea what to make of that...

Vasco: thanks a lot for those pictures, this is indeed precisely the kind of images I'm looking for, and even this sole picture directly makes clear why: up until now I had never seen an EOC case that also carries the Cf marking!!! I need to re-interpret that. To the best of my knowledge the Cf marking really ought to indicate British usage, yet, all the Japanese markings are there too: there's the Asahi (Kanji) acceptance mark, a Yokosuka reload mark (i.e. the inverted 'E'), the 'loose letter markings'.... Interestingly enough I also see a feature that I tend to see on all (so far, at least) of the 47x131R cases with Cf markings too: the groove around the primer.
Things like these are puzzling in one way, and help in other ways. Definitely manufactured by EOC, it almost certainly made its way to Japan (unless I'm very grossly misinterpreting the encircled 'Yo' Katakana marking), and then... well, my best guess is that the case might have been exported back to the UK (around 1915-1916, perhaps?) and again used there????
Question: did you obtain this case from the UK or from some other location?

Wow, nice information!
Hopefully others can add such images too.

Cheers,
Olafo
 
image.jpgEvening Olafo, the case was found in a Liverpool junk shop only a year ago. I suspect that it has not travelled far after being acquired as a souvenir. Liverpool has a very strong maritime history, particularly in terms of ship building. I would suggest that the case was potentially acquired during the testing, commissioning or repair of a Japanese warship in the area.

I have added a picture of my 47x131R case for completeness.
 
Hi Olafo

I have included below a selection of the 47mm cases I have which you may find interesting. Apologies for the poor quality of the pictures.



DSCN6552.jpgDSCN6554.jpgDSCN6553.jpg


Below is a picture of one of the EOC marked projectiles.

DSCN6555.jpg

And finally a picture of two 3pr cases that may be of interest.

DSCN6556.jpgDSCN6558.jpg

Best

D
 
Hi Vasco and Burney,

Thanks a million, those pictures are dynamite (pun intended) and some of these will see me change my article somewhat!
All of it is great stuff and is PRECISELY what I'm looking for. I hope to see many more similar pictures. :)
Wow, that first 3Pr case seems to have a 3/94 date, right? That then precedes the earliest EOC manufactured 47x131R case that I have seen by more than 4 years, as that one is from 5/98!
Seeing that encircled Katakana 'Sa' (= 'Sasebo arsenal') mark on there is lovely too. The other ones are great too, for example, the other 3Pr case seems to have one encircled 'E' and one encircled Katakana 'Yo'. Vasco's cases also show the encircled 'E'. It appears the large encircled 'E' that doesn't seem to have a calligraphed 'slant' to it is an 'E' after all. I know that the encircled 'A' on British cases means that the case has been annealed after firing. I wonder if that 'E' has a 'British meaning' (perhaps something like 'Export'?). It's things like that that I'm trying to find out.
The EOC manufactured projectile is great too. I have 4 of these APHE projectiles with the same Nordenfelt style DB and none of them seems to have this EOC marking on the side. One of them possibly has the EOC marking on the base (on the very bottom). It is not completely clear and appears to possibly be 'OO' or 'OC'. Is there something like that on your's too?
The 47x131R cases have some nice surprises too; particularly the two leftmost ones in the top row. The one on the far left was manufactured at the Kure arsenal in februari 1905 (i.e. month 2 of Meiji year 38). The encircled Katakana marking is again the 'Sa' (= Sasebo) one. The case directly to the right of it intrigues me too, it too has the 'Sa' Katakana character. It also has the Kanji indication for Sasebo at least once (possibly twice or three times - hard to tell in the pictures). I'd really love to see the markings on that case a bit more in close-up, as I just can't make out all of them for sure. Can you perhaps post one (or more) additional picture(s) of that one, such that I can better make out the markings?

Again, great stuff, thanks a lot!

And to everyone....: Keep 'em coming! :p

Cheers,
Olafo
 
Last edited:
Hi,

Excellent, thanks a lot already. I'm looking forward to seeing them...
Also: let me know if you want to know what the markings on your cases mean. I do not yet 100% confirmedly so know how to fully correctly interpret all of them, but most of them are pretty well known to me.

Cheers,
Olafo
 
Hi,

Thanks for that picture, the markings are very clear now.
I love headstamps like these as they are so curious. The anchor is the Kure arsenal anchor, and by all means that should be the manufacturer of it.
Then, there are three Kanji markings that all are the same. They are the beginning part of 'Sasebo' and I *THINK* that these are early reload marks. Interestingly enough all three of them have been struck through. Then, there's a final marking, being the encircled Katakana 'Sa'. That again should indicate the Sasebo arsenal. On later cases (late Taisho era and all of the Showa era up until the end of WW2) that was the character that was used in reloading markings.
IF all of these interpretations (and my theory on these markings) are fully correct, this particular case then seems to have possibly been reloaded as many as 4 times (at Sasebo). It is of course possible that one of the four Sasebo markings is not a reload marking, but rather an initial filling (loading) marking. I am not sure if Kure around that time only produced the case or if they loaded the round too. I would expect the latter, but I cannot be sure about it.
I do not see a single British marking on this particular case. Did you source this in the UK or elsewhere?
Also: can you tell me where you encountered the other items too? Did you source all of them in the UK, or did some of them come from other locations?
It shall be interesting to combine that knowledge with the seen headstamps.

Cheers,
Olafo
 
All of the cases have been sourced in the UK Olafo. I have no further information that can help I'm afraid.

D
 
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