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Dragontooth
Guest
pics would be helpful. friends want to buy some .
thanks.
post WWII best but not crucial.
thanks.
post WWII best but not crucial.
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Can you please help: need info on US hand grenades adamsite/DM
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Dragontooth
Guest
thanks ray. does anybody have pics of M6 CN-DM?
by the way, does anybody know whihc manufacturer NY or NYI is ? they made grenade fuzes. http://members.shaw.ca/dwlynn/Markings.htm
thanks.
by the way, does anybody know whihc manufacturer NY or NYI is ? they made grenade fuzes. http://members.shaw.ca/dwlynn/Markings.htm
thanks.
There is a picture on Lex' site: http://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/americas/unitedstates/m6cndm.html
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Dragontooth
Guest
ok sorry to ask again but what about the NY / NYI code?
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Dragontooth
Guest
alrightie, V40 ( Mark ) we're all waiting for you to enlighten us...
V40
Well-Known Member
Diphenylaminearsine (DM, adamsite) belong to a group of chemicals classified as vomiting agents. DA appears as colorless crystals, DC as a white solid, and DM as light yellow-to-green crystals. DA and DM are odorless, and DC reportedly has an odor similar to garlic or bitter almonds. All 3 agents are insoluble in water. The synthesis of these agents dates back to the early 20th century. In 1915, Wieland, a German chemist, synthesized the agent DM. Three years later, a US chemist, Major Robert Adams, independently developed this same compound and named it adamsite. Since that time, these agents have been produced for 2 purposes, as riot-control agents and as emesis-inducing agents to promote removal of personal protective gear during chemical warfare This is just for the military and their chemical warfare suits.
I am not sure when when DM found it's way into Police use. But, if we look back during 1900's thru the 1960's, riots, Civil Disorders, Mobs, and Protests could all get really bad in a New York minute. There were even times when Martial Law was called in the city in trouble, and the mayor went through the Govenor to get their State National Guard into action. When the Guard came out back then, there was nothing that they could solve. They were given "Live" ammo, CN (Tear Gas) and CN-DM canisters to be used liberalbly. Quote a number of people were killed on both sides, with the NG always wining.
Anyhow, the one that was used in conjuction with CN-DM with the DM part having a Chemical/technical name of: diphenylaminechlorasine Both DM & CN could be used together as such or they both could come in seperate containers to be used when trouble came to town. Why would the military and the Police use them as CN-DM? The reason is quite easly found. Back then, before the advent of CS, we used the true "Tear Gas" called CN. CN can come in a liquid state and or a Crystalline. Either way, when they hit the air, CN begins to be released. Therefore, CN can be released in three general methods: Combustion, by force from an explosion, or by a blast of air.
CN will almost take effect almost immediately when released by either of the three methods discussed above. The effects are not really as bad as CS, but CN can really hurt you if you are not out of there as quick as possible. Hence the problem as you are a bystander such as was the case at Kent State. When you are gassed by the NG and the Police through the use of CN, you really want to get away as far as you can because it shuts the eyes, inflames the mucous membranes to the point of not being able to breath thru your nose and it hits your lungs hard making it feel like you are drowning/cannot breathe. If Asthmatics are within the gas, death can be certain unless immediate medical help can be there with epinephrine.
Now, while you were suffering from the CS, DM has reached it's peak in you at around the 2-3 minute mark. Now DM comes into effect. This combo is too make the mob from reorganizing again and hopefully dispersing them from the scene. The DM gas will hit your throat and nose much harder than CN does. Here is how DM works: The irritation begins in your nose as a tickling sensation, followed by viscous mucous pouring out 5-10 times the rate that CN has done. The irritation then spreads down into the throat and this is where the choking and couthing begins. Then you get the biggest headache known to man, especially in the frontal portion of the head. So far these effects have already intensified but they will get worse. You will also have a oppressive pain in the chest, shortness of breath, then nausea which causes retching and vomiting uncontrollably. You have a very unsteady gait, a feeling of vertigo, weakness of the legs and a trembling all over the body. These effects usually reach culmination in around the 15+ minute mark. If you have survived these effects which many do not, consider yourself blessed. It usually takes 24-48 hours for a full recovery in many times in ICU.
The last time I have seen DM was made by Federal Laboratories dated 1966 has listed DM in the following: The FedLabs "Fliterite Projectile No. 231, DM (Sickening Gas) and the Federal NO. 166 Triple Chaser DM (Sickening Das)
One other item. DM has been called "Sickening Gas", "Knock Out Gas", "KO Gas, "Death Gas", along with just a couple other names which I am not aware of. Some of this material came from a book entitled "Crown and Riot Control" By Colonel Rex Applegate (USAA, retired) dated 1964 and "Kill or get Killed" also By Colonel Rex Applegate, dated/revised 1976. And........"The abc guide of Tear Gas Control and use" by Fedral Laboratories in 1966.
I have other items, magazine publications more books and different delivery systems. I also have experience in teaching "Less-than-lethal munitions of all types and their chemicals (CN, CS, and OC).
I am not sure when when DM found it's way into Police use. But, if we look back during 1900's thru the 1960's, riots, Civil Disorders, Mobs, and Protests could all get really bad in a New York minute. There were even times when Martial Law was called in the city in trouble, and the mayor went through the Govenor to get their State National Guard into action. When the Guard came out back then, there was nothing that they could solve. They were given "Live" ammo, CN (Tear Gas) and CN-DM canisters to be used liberalbly. Quote a number of people were killed on both sides, with the NG always wining.
Anyhow, the one that was used in conjuction with CN-DM with the DM part having a Chemical/technical name of: diphenylaminechlorasine Both DM & CN could be used together as such or they both could come in seperate containers to be used when trouble came to town. Why would the military and the Police use them as CN-DM? The reason is quite easly found. Back then, before the advent of CS, we used the true "Tear Gas" called CN. CN can come in a liquid state and or a Crystalline. Either way, when they hit the air, CN begins to be released. Therefore, CN can be released in three general methods: Combustion, by force from an explosion, or by a blast of air.
CN will almost take effect almost immediately when released by either of the three methods discussed above. The effects are not really as bad as CS, but CN can really hurt you if you are not out of there as quick as possible. Hence the problem as you are a bystander such as was the case at Kent State. When you are gassed by the NG and the Police through the use of CN, you really want to get away as far as you can because it shuts the eyes, inflames the mucous membranes to the point of not being able to breath thru your nose and it hits your lungs hard making it feel like you are drowning/cannot breathe. If Asthmatics are within the gas, death can be certain unless immediate medical help can be there with epinephrine.
Now, while you were suffering from the CS, DM has reached it's peak in you at around the 2-3 minute mark. Now DM comes into effect. This combo is too make the mob from reorganizing again and hopefully dispersing them from the scene. The DM gas will hit your throat and nose much harder than CN does. Here is how DM works: The irritation begins in your nose as a tickling sensation, followed by viscous mucous pouring out 5-10 times the rate that CN has done. The irritation then spreads down into the throat and this is where the choking and couthing begins. Then you get the biggest headache known to man, especially in the frontal portion of the head. So far these effects have already intensified but they will get worse. You will also have a oppressive pain in the chest, shortness of breath, then nausea which causes retching and vomiting uncontrollably. You have a very unsteady gait, a feeling of vertigo, weakness of the legs and a trembling all over the body. These effects usually reach culmination in around the 15+ minute mark. If you have survived these effects which many do not, consider yourself blessed. It usually takes 24-48 hours for a full recovery in many times in ICU.
The last time I have seen DM was made by Federal Laboratories dated 1966 has listed DM in the following: The FedLabs "Fliterite Projectile No. 231, DM (Sickening Gas) and the Federal NO. 166 Triple Chaser DM (Sickening Das)
One other item. DM has been called "Sickening Gas", "Knock Out Gas", "KO Gas, "Death Gas", along with just a couple other names which I am not aware of. Some of this material came from a book entitled "Crown and Riot Control" By Colonel Rex Applegate (USAA, retired) dated 1964 and "Kill or get Killed" also By Colonel Rex Applegate, dated/revised 1976. And........"The abc guide of Tear Gas Control and use" by Fedral Laboratories in 1966.
I have other items, magazine publications more books and different delivery systems. I also have experience in teaching "Less-than-lethal munitions of all types and their chemicals (CN, CS, and OC).
D
Dragontooth
Guest
Mark, that was very informative thank you!
Is DM still being used?
Besides Federal Labs who else made DM? A friend of mine, Carl, claims that Lake Erie Chemical Co. (later part of Smith and Wesson) also made DM but he hasn't sent me any pics yet.
PS Do you have some pics?
Is DM still being used?
Besides Federal Labs who else made DM? A friend of mine, Carl, claims that Lake Erie Chemical Co. (later part of Smith and Wesson) also made DM but he hasn't sent me any pics yet.
PS Do you have some pics?
A lot of police have gone away from DM and any other burning agents. Most police grenades are OC or liquid cs/cn. They found throwing burning type grenades into building had the chance of setting the structure on fire.
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Dragontooth
Guest
got a pic or literature...and from when to when did they load it?
thanks
thanks
[h=1]Tear Gas Munitions: An Analysis of Commercial Riot Gas Guns, Tear Gas Projectiles, Grenades, Small Arms Ammunition, and Related Tear Gas Devices[/h]Thomas F. Swearengen (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Tear-Gas-Munitions-Commercial-Projectiles/dp/B0000EGNCL
They started using it in 1932.
http://www.amazon.com/Tear-Gas-Munitions-Commercial-Projectiles/dp/B0000EGNCL
They started using it in 1932.
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Dragontooth
Guest
Not bad... 200 bucks. Then again...kids are expensive, too. The dilemmas of life. Maybe someone could tell me until around when Lake Erie was loading DM and Ill be happy- leaves more dinero for the little ones. :-D
FWIW I was able to refer to a LECCO Product Catalog Circa mid 1970's and they were not listing DM Agent Products at that time, only CN, CS, HC and Inert Practice Agents. Since S&W / LECCO Ceased to exist in the late 1980's, there may be no other documented way(s) to determine when they quit offering DM Agent Loadings other then locating and studying additional vintage catalogs.
Reviewing "Tear Gas Munitions" by Thomas Swearengen published circa 1966, would indicate that LECCO and Federal Laboratories were both offering DM Loadings, however CS Gas was attaining the most focus and popularity at that time. When US Commercial Tear Gas Manufacturers began offering / loading CS Agents in the 1960's, it marked the eventual end of Commercial DM Loadings in The US.
In approximately 1969 The International Association Of Chiefs Of Police Published The "Police Chemical Agents Manual" as a standard reference / guideline for US Law Enforcement Agencies. In same was stated: "DM is currently stocked in small quantities by only a limited number of Police Departments in The US. It is not recommended for Law Enforcement Use under any but the most extreme conditions". With The IACP stating this position, it most likely spelled the end of most Police Chiefs desiring to obtain DM Loadings for their agencies.
I have observed Commercial DM Loaded Grenades and Projectiles in US Police Agencies as late as the 1980's, however all observed were manufactured in the 1960's or prior and should have been disposed of upon their expiration many years earlier.
Again obtaining and researching vintage catalogs / published references and manuals will be the way to answer this question and only to a certain time frame.
Also attached is a Federal Laboratories Dummy 1.5" DM "Spedeheat" Projectile Manufactured Circa Pre WW2.
Attachments
V40
Well-Known Member
I too have seen very old CN/DM canisters that should of been gone a very long time ago. I believe that DM was just too dangerous to keep producing it and especially using it. DM is just bad juju. It can and sometimes did kill people in the 30's-60's. Liability for use was something no department wanted to face back then, especially when it had a track record of people dying with high doses. I was told many years ago, circa the 1980 that they were in stock in the armory in Columbus, Ohio by the Army and/or the NG. This was supposedly a rumor I found out only later on.
If there were any left and they were properly stored, I believe the expiration was far passed it's usefulness. The only way to get rid of it was to burn it in a very hot, very large, incinerater where they dispose of Nerve agents, and other lethal munitions. I am not sure where one is though? In the Army's FM 19 - 15 Civil Disorders (November, 1985) they seem to use CS in both liquid and dry forms against rioters. They also mention a lot about using the the M33A1 which looks like an old vintage flamethrower. They also talk about the use of the M5 disperser from helicopters. No DM is mentioned anywhere in the text that I could fine. Now they do mention the use of firearms (the Army calls it: "Extreme Force Options"). Basically the Army/NG is having things going bad to worse and they are loosing ground from a very hostile crowd. This option consists of the following: Shotguns using either No. 7 1/2 to No. 9 "Birdshot" and all they way up to 00 buck and this does not mean using any "skip firing" either. Rifles, using either 5.56 x 45mm or 7.62 x 51mm. Machineguns just like the use of the rifle ammo. There will be NO use of any ammunition larger than 7.62. This means no .50cals, 20mm's, and no larger. The use of the M234 "ring-foil" attachment on the end of an M16/AR-15 series of rifles using the bayonet lug, flashider, and the front sight post as to where it mounts on these rifles. Only the use of "Blank" ammunition is advised. Everything stated above as far as the EFO operations are concerned, they will be used by the Army's SRT's and certain select individuals within the line itself.
No DM mentioned.
In an FBI study released to the IACP on 3 April 1967 entitled: "PREVENTION AND CONTROL OF MOBS AND RIOTS" no mention of using DM is in there. Just Hoses, Horses, Dogs, and Fire Hydrants. Yes, Fire Hydrants. Riots typically break out when the ambient temperature goes over the 90+ degree mark, in the hottest months of the Summer; usually June and July. They can also form during Spring, Fall, or even in the winter these are the exceptions rather than the norm. I believe Philidelphia has used this method many, many times since the 1960's. When tempers flair along with intermittant black outs or brown outs and people cannot find somwhere cool, hot heads do prevail. This is when the Fire Department along with a Police Unit go to very poor neighborhoods and open up the hydrants using special devices to make it fun for kids and adults alike. It really works unless their is a determined hostile crowd that its sole purpose is to disrupt the city because of a Police Shooting of a minority.
This is all I have on Riots, Civil Disorders, Mobs, and Inserections.
For more info on what the DM and CN canisters looked like I suggest you get a copy of Darryl Lynn's book entitled: "The Grenade Recognition Manual, Volume 1". Mr. Lynn is a member here too.
The subject on everything to do with DM, DM/CN and there use in Riots, etc., ect. are possibly exhausted on this thread? IMHO, I have given you TMI on riots and maybe not enough on the DM chemical. Although, I believe you have been given about all the info that we know on Diphenyl amine-chlorarsine. The definition of the active ingrediant in DM is Chloarsine and is stated in this paragraph from "wiki".
Arsine is the chemical compound with the formula AsH[SUB]3[/SUB]. This flammable, pyrophoric, and highly toxic gas is one of the simplest compounds of arsenic. Despite its lethality, it finds applications in the semiconductor industry and for the synthesis of organoarsenic compounds
If there were any left and they were properly stored, I believe the expiration was far passed it's usefulness. The only way to get rid of it was to burn it in a very hot, very large, incinerater where they dispose of Nerve agents, and other lethal munitions. I am not sure where one is though? In the Army's FM 19 - 15 Civil Disorders (November, 1985) they seem to use CS in both liquid and dry forms against rioters. They also mention a lot about using the the M33A1 which looks like an old vintage flamethrower. They also talk about the use of the M5 disperser from helicopters. No DM is mentioned anywhere in the text that I could fine. Now they do mention the use of firearms (the Army calls it: "Extreme Force Options"). Basically the Army/NG is having things going bad to worse and they are loosing ground from a very hostile crowd. This option consists of the following: Shotguns using either No. 7 1/2 to No. 9 "Birdshot" and all they way up to 00 buck and this does not mean using any "skip firing" either. Rifles, using either 5.56 x 45mm or 7.62 x 51mm. Machineguns just like the use of the rifle ammo. There will be NO use of any ammunition larger than 7.62. This means no .50cals, 20mm's, and no larger. The use of the M234 "ring-foil" attachment on the end of an M16/AR-15 series of rifles using the bayonet lug, flashider, and the front sight post as to where it mounts on these rifles. Only the use of "Blank" ammunition is advised. Everything stated above as far as the EFO operations are concerned, they will be used by the Army's SRT's and certain select individuals within the line itself.
No DM mentioned.
In an FBI study released to the IACP on 3 April 1967 entitled: "PREVENTION AND CONTROL OF MOBS AND RIOTS" no mention of using DM is in there. Just Hoses, Horses, Dogs, and Fire Hydrants. Yes, Fire Hydrants. Riots typically break out when the ambient temperature goes over the 90+ degree mark, in the hottest months of the Summer; usually June and July. They can also form during Spring, Fall, or even in the winter these are the exceptions rather than the norm. I believe Philidelphia has used this method many, many times since the 1960's. When tempers flair along with intermittant black outs or brown outs and people cannot find somwhere cool, hot heads do prevail. This is when the Fire Department along with a Police Unit go to very poor neighborhoods and open up the hydrants using special devices to make it fun for kids and adults alike. It really works unless their is a determined hostile crowd that its sole purpose is to disrupt the city because of a Police Shooting of a minority.
This is all I have on Riots, Civil Disorders, Mobs, and Inserections.
For more info on what the DM and CN canisters looked like I suggest you get a copy of Darryl Lynn's book entitled: "The Grenade Recognition Manual, Volume 1". Mr. Lynn is a member here too.
The subject on everything to do with DM, DM/CN and there use in Riots, etc., ect. are possibly exhausted on this thread? IMHO, I have given you TMI on riots and maybe not enough on the DM chemical. Although, I believe you have been given about all the info that we know on Diphenyl amine-chlorarsine. The definition of the active ingrediant in DM is Chloarsine and is stated in this paragraph from "wiki".
Arsine is the chemical compound with the formula AsH[SUB]3[/SUB]. This flammable, pyrophoric, and highly toxic gas is one of the simplest compounds of arsenic. Despite its lethality, it finds applications in the semiconductor industry and for the synthesis of organoarsenic compounds
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Dragontooth
Guest
I am really curious about this too- who might know NY and NYI.
Mogway, which models did you see it on?