Common Rare rounds and Rare Common rounds

[RichardB]

Ok, I agree, a slightly perplexing title, but hopefully this will make sense to a few of you..
I've been collecting tank and anti-tank rounds from WW2 for just over 5 years, and in that time, its become fairly obvious what rounds are hard to find and what rounds are fairly easy to find....for example

The two most commonly produced tanks of the war were the T-34 and M4 Sherman totaling over 125,000 vehicles combined. Yet I have only ever seen in person 1x 76.2mm UBR-354 APHE standard rounds for the T-34 and only a few more 75mm M61 APHE Sherman standard rounds. Where did they all go, is it because they're the most well known and everyone wants one?

Conversely there are some rounds that you'd think would be harder to find, because they're either exotic materials (eg tungsten core ) or limited use, are relatively simple to find a 8,8cm Kwk43, UBR-354P (Arrowhead), 28/20mm PzB41, 17Pdr APDS. Ive even seen more 12,8cm Pzgr. 43 than I have Sherman M4 rounds....so back to my original subject title, here's a list of common rare rounds and rare common rounds...

Can anyone explain why, can we add to the list?

Common "rare" rounds

• Russian 76.2mm UBR-354P arrowhead
• German 8,8cm Kw.k43 with Pzgr39/43
• British 6 PR APDS
• German 28/20mm PzB41

Rare "common" rounds

• US/British 75mm M61 APHE
• Russian 76.2mm UBR-354 APHE

Is this phenomenon in my imagination, or related to locale?
Id love to hear what people think.

Rch

 

[smle2009]

Hi Richard,
I personally witnessed several thousand war time unfired 75mm AP-T(solid shot) Sherman projectiles being scrapped in a local scrapyard within the last seven years.
So maybe the same has happened to the common rare(I do know what you mean) rounds you mention.

I did manage to rescue one which is now in Bovington Tank Museum!

Cheers
Tony

 

[Tony Williams]

A similar effect applies to small calibre rounds, too.

The 13x92SR anti-tank rifle round was only made in relatively small numbers in the final year of WW1, but is very common in collections. So is the 7.92x94 from WW2. I suspect the reason in this case is that the rounds are interesting and unusual, and very easy to slip in a pocket and carry back from the war.

Naval rounds tend to be harder to find, partly I suspect because it's easier to control what happens to the ammo, partly because fired cases tend to go overboard in wartime. The USN 1.1 inch AA round was made in vast quantities in WW2 yet it is quite rare (over here, anyway) to see a genuine complete round in good condition.

With some of the rarer loadings (like APCR) you need also to bear in mind that they are attractive to copy as replicas or fakes...

 

[SG500]

Good thread Rich.

Good unfired 13 pounders seem quite hard to find, especially the HE ones, considering the millions that were made.

Dave.

 

[pzgr40/42]

Hey Richard,

Nice to hear there's someone out there with the exact same interest I have!

I think one of the answers to this phenomenon may be found in postwar usage. Plenty off allied ammo was used for years and years in the post war period, so stocks may have been depleted and surplusses will (due to regulations applying in most countries) have been destroyed, rendering very common ammo hard to find (here in the Nl it's a bit of a bitch to find e.g. a 25 pdr in it's original colours).
Same would apply for German ammo that was used post war, good quality Kw.K 42's are kinda hard to come by (panthers serving with the French army well into the 50's)

Just the opposite may apply to the rarer bits. Because they were phased out early on, or no further use was made of them, it would have been easy to "acquire" pieces post war. A good example being the Kw.K 43 rounds that in recent years have turned up by "tens" at a time. (also bearing in mind that even these "scarce" rounds having been manufactured by hundreds of thousands !) Five years back I'd have "killed" to get a good one, now (perhaps being overly complacent) I don't consider them worth my hard earned euro's.
I've also noticed that the rarer of the common rounds turn up either in the UK or the USA, I think this might be due to "vast" quantities of these munitions (S.Pz.B 41 etc.) being shipped there for examination/intelligence purposes, while German experimental ammo still mostly resides in Germany, not having been shipped abroad.

There are off course some noteable exceptions of service ammo being truly rare: 4,2 cm PaK 41, 7,5 cm PaK 41, 5 cm FlaK 41, 8,8 cm PzGr40's and the 7,5 cm Pzgr 40/42

Last but not least, I too would like to come and live in this place where 12,8 PzGr 43's are more common than M4 rounds, please tell me where that is !!!! :tinysmile_twink_t:

regards,

Menno.

 

[smle2009]

And another common rare one as Tony Williams mentioned the 7.92x94mm AT round is the 7.92x94 Treipatrone 318,which I have been told came about because the 7.92x94mm was fairly naff as a Anti tank rifle by WW2 and most were converted to grenade launchers and the bullet was replaced with a small wooden projectile and very much harder to find

Tony

 

[Falcon]

Something else is the 1.59" Crayford. This is a "rare" round that can sell for more that 300 for a god example. However, many collectors (in the UK at least) seem to have one or more examples.

However, the 1 Pounder mark III is what I would call a truly rare round. Those are hard to find.

 

[RichardB]

Here's one example of the Common "Rare" round....the Russian 76.2mm BR-354P (arrowhead)
They seem to be readily available and the cost reflects that, at about 150-200 but the point is, I'm sure we've all seen lots of these, yet try and get hold of any other arrowhead and the cost doubles and frequency of occurrence drops through the floor.

Why is that ?
.....My gut feeling says that this was a post war round, (I bought it believing its WW2 dated) and used perhaps for training, or perhaps they were sold to another nationality, who hoarded them until they were eventually made inert and sold on.

It would be interesting to hear peoples thoughts.



Cheers
Rich

 

[ogreve]

Along those lines (but not a 'round'), one of the biggest mysteries (to me at least) in the line of Japanese ammo is where all the proper mortar fuzes (i.e. Type 93 and Type 100) have gone. For all the ubiquity the Japanese had in their extensive line of mortars, the mortars themselves turn up in (relatively!) large quantities equipped with the incorrect Type 88 fuzes (see various other threads here at BOCN), yet, the proper Type 93 and Type 100 fuzes are seen very little. Considering the fact that using a Type 88 fuze on anything that doesn't have spin when fired (i.e. all of the Japanese mortar rounds, with exception of the knee mortars) will pretty much by definition result in the fuze not arming and hence resulting in a dud, one would certainly expect to see many more proper fuzes for the mortar rounds....

Cheers,
Olafo