Fair Price? Old Nagant Ammo

[Kilroy was Here]

A question for the ammo experts.....

Is this a full box of 1938 Russian Nagant ammo? It's live ammo, and looks almost like new. I assume the 38 is a date? I have a friend who will sell me a box of this for $60. I want to be sure, $60 quite a bit of money.

What do other collectors think? is it 1938 ammo? is it a fair price? Here's a couple pics......

I've been to many gun shows here in the US over last 35 years, and I don't remember ever seeing any WW2 or pre-war Russian Nagant revolver ammo. But then I was not looking for any at the time also.

 

[6.5MS]

All looks in very good condition - not expensive with a nice box as well!

 

[EOD]

Kilroy, these are made in the 1950's and 38 is the factory code of Tula. These cartridges go for 1$ each and the box is also no rarity.

 

[6.5MS]

Not in the UK! Sadly!

 

[jonnyc]

The date code on those rounds is for 1952. As previously posted, not a rare box. I think I sold a few like that for about $10-$15 each.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Kilroy, these are made in the 1950's and 38 is the factory code of Tula. These cartridges go for 1$ each and the box is also no rarity.

Hi, thanks for taking a look at them.....I'm glad I checked here before I buy them. Yes, I've read that "38" was plant No.38 Tula/Yuryuzan.

Are you 100% positive they are from the 50's??

I thought some (most) of the two digit numbers on bottom of some cases was the year of production? If they are from 1950's wouldn't they have a 2 digit date of production, or "at least one 5" somewhere on it? I thought ammo always had a year of production on them? :dontknow:

Here look....I have a few other old Russian ammo casings, but they are rifle 7.62x54r marked "17 40"and "17 44" and 7.62x25mm marked 43 and 44, and were made into cigarette lighters. On another forum I showed these lighters, and I was told they are for sure WW2 vintage, and were very popular & common with the soldiers during the war. I have other bullet lighters I've collected, with US and British cases, so they did seem to be a very popular item to make in WW2.

Here's some pics of the lighters, what do you think? They look to be WW2 dates, but my assumption of always having a date of production may not be true. :hmmmm2:

 

[Kilroy was Here]

The date code on those rounds is for 1952. As previously posted, not a rare box. I think I sold a few like that for about $10-$15 each.

Hi Jonnyc, OK thanks for info. Can you explain a bit more? What is the other marking opposite the 38? Is the other mark a cyrillic number ?

I thought all ammo had a date of production, either one or two "regular" numbers - digits? not a cyrillic number :dontknow:

 

[TonyE]

Dates

The Soviets used Cyrillic code letters for dates during the 1950s (at least). They are not the only people to do this.

Germany has used codes for dates on a couple of occassions, for example before WW2 for arms and equipment (G = 1935 etc) and also post war. Geco and DAG both used letter codes and symbols for dates in the 1960s. I am sure there are other examples.

Regards
TonyE

 

[jonnyc]

I don't know what the Cyrillic letters are, but I just usually call them r, A, E, N, and K. They equate to 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, and 1956, respectively. The mark opposite your 38 is the "r".

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Thanks everyone, I'm glad I checked here before I bought this box of ammo.

Thanks also for all the good info on case markings.

What do you think of the two cigarette lighters bullet casings?
Are those numbers "17" and "40" & "44" on rifle cases dates and factory codes?
What about the "Tokarev" cases with 43 & 44 on them, are these dates?

 

[TonyE]

Dates

Yes, those are dates.

The 7.62x54R case with the "E" symbol, actually a Cyrillic character, means it was intended to be used in the Shkas aircraft gun.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Kilroy was Here]

I don't know what the Cyrillic letters are

I believe Cyrillic letters are the Russian Alphabet.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Yes, those are dates.

The 7.62x54R case with the "E" symbol, actually a Cyrillic character, means it was intended to be used in the Shkas aircraft gun.

Regards
TonyE

Thanks Tony, that's very interesting to know about the E marking.
Were these loaded "hotter" or heavier bullets maybe?

do you know what the T on the 7.62x25 case? Tula?

 

[DreamPhoto]

Yes, E is actually Cyrillic letters Ш wich mean "Sch" .
This ammo is Hotter about 20% than usual 7,62x54r.

 

[jonnyc]

OK,
-The T on the 7.62x25 cases is for Tula.
-The 43 and 44 on your Tokarev cases are dates.
-I know the letters are Cyrillic, just not how they sound or how they fit into the Cyrillic alphabet.
-Tony, I'm sure you know that there is an E date code, as well as the E marking for aircraft ammo.
-I don't think there are any differences between standard and Shkas 7.62x54R ammo other than special heavy neck and primer crimps, put there to prevent cartridge parts from entering and jamming the MG action.

 

[DreamPhoto]

Ammo with letter "Ш" is special ammo for MG Shkas and have about 20% more power.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Great info from everyone, thank you.

So then the 2 bullet lighters are for sure WW2 casings, and the one E cartridge was for use in Aircraft guns, and had speacial case that is stronger, with more powder charge. Very interesting.

So then..... everyone agrees that the "38" Nagant revolver ammo at start of thread is 100% with no question about it, 1952 production, and Not 1938 ammo?

 

[TonyE]

38 and Shkas

Yes, the Nagant pistol rounds are 1952 without doubt, as Jonny says.

I am also with him that I believe that the Shkas cases marked with the "E" symbol (not sure how to get Cyrillic characters into this post) are strengthened cases due to the high rate of fire and violent action of the Shkas MG, and not more powerful. However, if Dreamphoto has any documentary evidence that it is actualy higher powered then I would be pleased to see it.

...and yes, Jonny, I was aware of the "E" date code but knew it did not apply in this case.

Regards
TonyE

 

[jonnyc]

Right, Tony, I forgot that they might also have strengthened webs in the case head.

 

[EOD]

Thanks everyone, I'm glad I checked here before I bought this box of ammo.

Thanks also for all the good info on case markings.

What do you think of the two cigarette lighters bullet casings?
Are those numbers "17" and "40" & "44" on rifle cases dates and factory codes?
What about the "Tokarev" cases with 43 & 44 on them, are these dates?

Yes, these are manufacturers and dates as by the book.
17 is the Barnaul plant.
T stands for Tula - being a small exception again since it should be number coded.