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FFE Certificate

P

panther1

Well-Known Member
Hello
I am asking if there is anybody who would be licensed to give FFE certificates. I will give you a horror story as to why I am asking this.
Last year I attended Beltring for the second time, because I knew I would end up buying some type of ordnance, I wrote letters to The minister responsible for Import Permits, I spoke to the Customs Department, I spoke to the Police. After all this the general consensus was If I declared the article at the airport as I arrived I should be right. First mistake never believe these people. I duly went to Beltring and purchased a nice Carl Gustoff HE round. It was completely empty, you could dismantle the fuze, and the projectile was empty, so I thought it would be right, second mistake, don't think, know what you are doing.
When I packed the round I made sure it was in pieces, and when I arrived I declared it as instructed. That seemed to go alright, so I applied for the permit. Next thing I am getting a phone call from the Australian Federal Police, they wanted an interview, and me thinking I had done everything by the book agreed . Third mistake never, and I mean never trust a Policeman. After an interview that was reminiscent of a bad cop movie, I was charged with importing a dangerous item. I then had to get a lawyer and fight the charge. The first charge was dropped and a second was taken up. Recklessly importing a Tier 2 article without a permit. Off to court I go and get the Magistrate from hell. The prosecutor said that the penalty should, be on advice from the Commonwealth Prosecutors Office, $500 fine and no criminal conviction. The bastard of a Magistrate gave me $2,000, and a criminal conviction, which led to the Police revoking my firearms license. So now I am off to court again to hopefully get my license back.
The moral of the story is don't believe anything a politician , police man, or Government Official says, do it all yourself.
This year I was lucky I had a senior sergent from the British Army, who deals in Ammunition, give me a FFE certificate, but next year I am not sure if he will be at Beltring, so can I ask again would anybody on this board, and who will be at Beltring be able to help me out?

Thanks again Great site

Iain King
 
Bloody Hell Iain,
Im sorry to hear of your plight.
Maybe some of the boys here can give you some advice on this?,its beyond my scope im afraid.

good luck


waff
 
I'm not sure what authority an Free From Explosives certificate carries, legally. All it means is that when YOU collect it the person who completed it is certifying that the item it refers to is FFE.

for example: I recently bought two 5.56mm ammo boxes which contained an FFE each. They were dated a few years earlier and in that time anything could have been stored in them. If I had been stopped by Plod and something untoward was contained therein (by myself or some terrorist moving explosives or ammunition about) the comeback would have been focused on the guy issuing the FFE. I think they are used as an "authority to issue" rather than a "certificate of compliance".
 
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It all depends who issued the FFE and there are so many people who think they have the authority to do so , im surprised that your two ammo boxes had FFE , several years ago at a Military fair in Gloucester , the organiser wanted an FFE sticker on each round of ammunition , that he wanted i believe 10 p each sticker was a joke These cerificates Army form G 904 to mean anything would have be signed by a Ammo Tech from either the Royal Logistics Corps or a form from a competent civilian Explosives engineer.
 
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I wonder if any competent authority was involved in Panther1s investigation and prosecution. I cant understand why he was prosecuted if the object was inert? Its ammunition or an explosive therefore he is guilty? Kind of what you were saying Fuzeman. Just because a copper said "This is ammunition go to jail". Even if it has an FFE doesnt make it right, the copper should have refered it upwards if he had doubts.
 
I was stopped from boarding the Channel islands ferry , several years ago because of some inert ordnance , taken by me to go to the occupation museum In Guernsey and to the police bomb squad for their trainning , (as it was a present i didnt tell them) , anyway special branch arrived at the scene , and checked that what i had was actually inert, they even checked with the Guernsey police , who knew me thankfully
From that day to this if carrying any ordnance what so ever i carry papers showing im a collector and museum representative . The customs girl at Poole was very attractive , but wasnt there the next time i came through, she did get a xmas card from me .
 
Hi Guys
The Carl Gustoff round was inspected by a Warrant Officer from The Ordnance Corps, but he didn't pull the fuze to pieces as he felt it was too dangerous. He stated that he couldn't say for sure that the clockwork detonator was removed. even though I showed the Customs Officers that all stuff had been taken out of the fuze, by dismantling it. None of this was presented by the prosecution, and they refused to give us access to the round to prove my case as the wanker from Ordnance deemed the round too dangerous to touch. The round was destroyed before my case went to court, thus removing any chance for me to prove my case, real Gestapo tactics. The thing that really peeved me, was that I showed the idiots from Customs the empty hole where the "clockwork detonator" was situated to prove it had been removed, but they all got amnesia and where they wrote it down got lost, strangely. The Federal Police who interviewed me were from a new section set up at the airport, so I got the impression that they were trying to prove themselves.

Iain
 
I take it you didn't seek legal representation in court? Your lawyer would have ripped them apart.
 
LCplCombat said:
I take it you didn't seek legal representation in court? Your lawyer would have ripped them apart.
Click to expand...

You will be surprised at the expertise of so-called police firearm and ordnance experts who are asked to attend court cases. Its seems that you got a bit of a raw deal. A lawyer would have wiped the floor with them and you would have got compensation as well. As for trust of officials i wouldn't trust any with a barge pole. Use your own discretion and advice from other collectors experiences etc.
Could you not appeal.
 
Hi
I did have a lawyer, that cost me a lot, but the prosecution had the Magistrate in their pocket from the start. It was like a bad american show. I could appeal but it would cost too much money. I have to go to court to try get my firearm license, that is going to cost a arm and a leg as it is. I wish my lawyer could get into them, but law over here still consists of gentlemen talking to each other in a civilised way, except Magistrates can insult and humiliate with impunity.
To get stuff imported into Australia I have to have an FFE for each bit ifordnance, it doesn't have to be Defence Force personnel, just a recognised expert in the field of explosives and ammunition.
I certainly learned an expensive lesson.
The reason I started this discussion I was hoping to find an expert among the people who work in UXO, aren't there a couple of guys who do that?

Iain
 
Hi Iain,

I talked to a pal tonight for you and he told me that the main problem is the difference of laws between each country.
He heard of a guy though who has stuff crated over to Oz when he returns home and has all relevant paperwork on each item ready for inspection.
He also told me that everything imported to Oz in packages is x-rayed and if any ordnance is found then its destroyed.

Please let us know how you get on and good luck.

best

waff
 
Why dont you just make your own? They are done on photocopiers anyway, how would they know?
 
I agree but it is the matter of finding something that looks official enough.
The system for importing ordnance into Australia goes like this.

Buy ordnance, and store with friend in UK
Get FFE certificate for official source
Send copy of FFE cert to State Police who will issue you with B709B permit
Send B709B, copy of FFE and copy of collectors license to Federal Minister for Customs for Import Permit
Have ordnance sent to you with copy of Import Permit stuck to box, plus FFE cert
Enjoy your big bullets
This is how it works now apparently
We'll see

Iain
 
Oh yeah Waff, I had a very rare Japanese 47mm AP round sent to me from China. The customs grabbed it and sent me a letter saying get the permit or it goes in the smelter.
The hopeless politician who was in the position dragged his heels so much that it ended its days in the shredder, bastards.

Iain
 
UK export permits! DTI

Hi all.
I had the same troubles over in the UK when I sent PG7 rounds to the states and believe it or not they were the solid rubber type used for training. After a police and HM Customs interview they advised me to get the correct DTI export permits next time. To cut the long story short they kept the items!
After getting DTI docs for other items to be sent to the US legally, customs returned the shipment back to me with the DTI docs stating no shipping firm or customs are willing to take a risk. It is a very grey area collecting ordnance for us all and we as legal collectors are treated the same as the no good scum in this world. Or should I say they have better rights than a legal law abiding collector. It will get worse for collectors. These days even having the correct docs means nothing.
Regards.
Baz
 
Certified free From Explosive

Here is a UK HSE Leaflet on the subject:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg335.pdf

BELOW IS A GUIDE ONLY FOR UK BASED RESIDENTS.

Q. Is there a legal requirement to hold an FFE Certificate?

It is not a legal requirement to hold an FFE Cert but it will help especially if questioned on items that may be suspect. Under Health & Safety you have a duty of care to others! Applicable to museums etc. The only official FFE certificate is that given to the item made that way at manufacture.

The certificate is a confidence of safety and should an item that was FFE'd be found live, the producer of the certificate could say it was in his opinion safe as far as reasonably possible.

Q. Will he be prosecuted?

Not sure...

Q. Must you have one to buy or obtain an item?

If you want some type of guarantee, buy a toaster?

Q. Does an FFE certificate hold up if raided by Police?

Dependent on the Force and circumstances. Furthermore, should anything be live and illegally held, who would you expect them to prosecute.

Q. What qualification do you need to be able to FFE an item? - (Military have their own authorization system for in service munitions etc)

None.

This subject is a very gray area to cover, but in short:
if its live, it will be destroyed unless you have a license,
if its obtained illegally it will be removed,
if its purchased or given to you in good faith and not illegal, you may well be able to keep it (provided its not live).
if its removed from ranges or nicked it will be removed,

Caveat

THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL, BOCN POLICY, GOVERNMENT OR MILITARY REPLY BUT ONLY PUT HERE AS A GUIDE. FURTHER INFORMATION OR UP TO DATE ISSUES ON FFE SHOULD BE SORT FROM YOUR AREA POLICE FIREARMS & EXPLOSIVE REPRESENTATIVES.

Whilst I endeavor to ensure that the information on this post is my view, I or BOCN do not warrant its completeness or accuracy; nor do we commit to ensuring that the information above remains available or that the material on the post is up-to-date.
 
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The issue of FFE certification (or lack of it) in the civilian sector has caused problems for many years. The MOD has a reasonably robust auditable system for its packaging, empty cases and other previously explosive filled articles. There is nothing comparable within civilian legislation in the UK at present. The HSE guidance is really only that - guidance.
As we move in the UK towards greater involvement of commercial EOD contractors in areas traditionally the domain of MOD EOD is there perhaps the need for an FFE system that would be fit for purpose for their needs and also the needs of collectors and museums etc. Any system should be auditable and robust enough to withstand scrutiny but importantly - in my view - it should be recognised and endorsed by the industry and groups such as BOCN and make it fit for purpose as a document to accompany inert items entering and leaving the UK. Some commercial EOD operators ( eg Ramora) offer an FFE service at present but as yet this is not an industry standard.
 
The MOD has a reasonably robust auditable system for its packaging, empty cases and other previously explosive filled articles
Click to expand...

It might appear so but the current system is open to abuse and fraud and isn't guaranteed to be 100% effective in any case. I deal with hundreds of FFEs a day. The ones I handle could have been signed by a civvie storemen, photocopied a few hundred times and inserted in a box after a cursory glance . There is no guarantee that he is qualified to certify the container or contents are FFE, some of them are not even filled in correctly. The only time they are examined closely is when there is a non-compliance issue (ie something live) and someone needs to be blamed. One example I could name is a box full of 81mm augmenting charges being certified FFE.

I could remove any amount of discarded, completed FFEs and no one would be any the wiser. Don't ask me to though, cos you don't have enough boxes for my collection to pay me in:p
 
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