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Help with 90mm rounds please

steve rb

Well-Known Member
Hi folks, I've got a set of 3 90mm fin stabilised practice projectiles.

IMG_2929.JPG

Now the one on the right I'm pretty sure is the Cockerill short case round, the other two I'm not so sure about... could they be long case Giat / Cockerill? or perhaps M19 90mm tank practice rounds? The larger one is very heavy...
Any advice appreciated, further pics and markings below :

IMG_2923.JPGIMG_2924.JPGIMG_2925.JPGIMG_2927.JPG
 
Projectile on the right is the inert 90mm TP-T BSCC 90 F1 (practice round used to simulate the 90mm HEAT-T OCC F1), used with the GIAT (now NEXTER) CN-90-F1 (aka DEFA D921) and its copies / derivatives (e.g. CN-90-F2, GT-2). This is the gun fitted to the AML-90, ERC-90 with Lynx Turret, Ratel-90,... The projectile should be about 500mm long and weigh 3.6 kg.
 
The other two projectiles (left and center) are PRB designs (as suggested by the NR-188 & NR-246 markings), so either manufactured by PRB (Poudres Runies de Belgique) or by GIAT (now NEXTER).

Since the NR-188 and NR-246 designations denotes rather dated designs (1980s ?) and PRB went bankrupt, it would make identification easier if you could provide the length and weight of each projectile.

I suspect that both of these projectiles are for Cockerill guns (Mk1, Mk2, Mk3, perhaps Mk4 & Mk7).

My best guess is that the projectile on the left (NR-246) is a HEAT-TP-T and the projectile in the middle (NR-188) is a HE-TP-T.
 
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middle one is 560mm and the left hand one is 640mm. My stupid scales are either <5Kg for baking or >50kg for fat dudes so I'm guessing as both are in-between! But the smaller one is about 6Kg and the large a good 9-10Kg. not sure if that helps, couldn't see anything similar in my oldest Jane's (1990)....

cheers
Steve
 
middle one is 560mm and the left hand one is 640mm. My stupid scales are either <5Kg for baking or >50kg for fat dudes so I'm guessing as both are in-between! But the smaller one is about 6Kg and the large a good 9-10Kg. not sure if that helps, couldn't see anything similar in my oldest Jane's (1990)....

cheers
Steve

I've come across some reference linking the NR-188 with cockerill guns, and both the length and mass of the projectile would be consistent with those used with the Mk1, Mk2 & Mk3 guns. That would seem to confirm my guess that the NR-188 is indeed a HE-TP-T for the Cockerill Mk1, Mk2 & Mk3 guns.

As for the NR-246, the mass you mention seems too high for a Cockerill Mk1 / Mk2 / Mk3 gun. Likewise, it's too high for the Rheinmetall BK90 L/40 gun fitted to the KanonenJagdPanzer 90, 80 of which were bought by Belgium in 1975 (HEAT round was 5.74kg). So maybe a TP for the US M36/M41 90mm guns ? I'm afraid I'll have to skip my turn on this one. Sorry...

Kind regards.

Matt.

PS1 : the numbers in the NR-xxx designations suggest these projectiles may have been developped in the early 1980s (or perhaps earlier), so you'd have to try and get a copy of a JAH of that era to find these projectiles listed (maybe).

PS2 : wouldn't the kind of scale used for humans be suitable for a mass comprised between 5kg and 15kg (the one my wife uses for her weightwatcher program seems quite adequate).
 
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Right, managed to get them weighed, big one is 8.4Kg, small one is 5.3Kg, give or take a bit for scales.... Still think the larger is US tank? that's what we'd suspected at the start, it just looks just like a Cockerill round...
 
Right, managed to get them weighed, big one is 8.4Kg, small one is 5.3Kg, give or take a bit for scales.... Still think the larger is US tank? that's what we'd suspected at the start, it just looks just like a Cockerill round...

1) Both the length and mass of the NR-188 (in the middle) are consistent with this projectile being a HE-TP-T for the Cockerill 90mm Mk1/2/3.

2) The mass of the NR-246 seems to high for this projectile to be a HEAT-TP-T for the Cockerill 90mm Mk1/2/3. From there, I can only think of a couple of alternatives :

a) In the early 1980s (1983-84 IIRC), Cockerill developed a couple of 90mm which were more powerful than the Mk1/2/3 : the Mk4A3 and the Mk7. The Mk4A3 was intended as an upgrade for the M41 light tank and the Mk7 eventually morphed into the Mk8 (after it was somehow merged with the MECAR Kenerga 90/46). According to Jane's 1990-91, the Mk4A3 and Mk7 offered the same performances. The HEAT projectile was said to have a mass of 5.8 kg and a MV of 950 m/s, meaning a muzzle energy of about 2.6 MJ. So it may be assumed that a 8.4 kg HEAT projectile could have been fired at a MV of about 800 m/s from the Mk7, which could make sense. From there, one may imagine that this was an early HEAT design for the Mk7, later replaced by a lighter (and faster) projectile. Problem with this is that your projectile is marked A1, meaning it's the second iteration of the NR-246, and it doesn't seem to make much sense given given the timeframe.

b) The Belgian Army was an M47 user (until the mid-1980s), and it's possible that PRB may have developed a HEAT projectile for the US 90mm M36/M41 guns. The M431 HEAT round was 5.8kg with a MV of 1,220 m/s (i.e. muzzle energy of about 4.3 MJ), so it may be assumed that a 8.4kg projectile could achieve a MV of about 1,000 m/s, which sounds quite reasonable for a HEAT projectile. The NR-246 doesn't look similar to the US 90mm HEAT projectiles I'm familar with (i.e. M348 & M431 series), but I seem to recall that other HEAT projectiles were developed in the US for this gun (don't remember their designation though).

This second option (US M36/M41 guns) sounds more plausible than the first one (Cockerill Mk4/7), so you might want to research the various 90mm HEAT projectiles that were developed in the US and will hopefully end up with something that matches your NR-246.

That's unfortunately as much as I can help, since I've reached the limits of my very limited knowledge.

I nevertheless hope it might be useful and that someone will eventually jump in with the correct answer.

Kind regards.

Matt.

PS : you could also try to contact the PR department of NEXTER (formerly GIAT) in France and ask them if they can help you with the Nr-188 and NR-246 designations. Since they took over from PRB when the Belgian company went bankrupt in 1993, they might be able to help you.
 
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Matt, thanks SO much for your effort in putting that together, much appreciated.

I also found this for the NR-188 round :

90mm%20HEAT-TP-T.jpg


So that's the middle one sorted.

As for the NR-246, the only other info I have is that this likely came VIA the British Royal Ordnance.... So not sure if there were any links there, or if these could have been made under license (not that the 90mm US guns were really used much by us other than some small volume bits for the Korean war...)
 
Matt, thanks SO much for your effort in putting that together, much appreciated.

I also found this for the NR-188 round :

90mm%20HEAT-TP-T.jpg


So that's the middle one sorted.

As for the NR-246, the only other info I have is that this likely came VIA the British Royal Ordnance.... So not sure if there were any links there, or if these could have been made under license (not that the 90mm US guns were really used much by us other than some small volume bits for the Korean war...)

Looking at the website where you got the above image from, I was under the impression that the 90mm HE-T round was a better match for your NR-188, with a projectile weight of 5.1 kg (vs 4.2 kg for the HEAT-T).

As I understand it, RO-made 90mm projectiles comes with a designation that looks like RO-9xx, whereas the NR-xxx designation was specific to PRB (and later to GIAT / Luchaire when they took over this activity from PRB).

Good luck in your quest for infos on the NR-246. Don't hesitate to let us know what you find out.

Kind regards.


Matt.
 
Hi,

I've recently come across a HE-APERS-FRAG projectile for the Cockerill 90mm Mk1,2&3 guns, designated NR-219. This projectile has a mass of 8.5kg (no data for the length unfortunately).

Since masses and shapes are similar, the NR-246 might well be an evolution / training round derivative of the NR-219 HE-APERS-FRAG.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards.

Matt.
 
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