Interesting 13.2 mm Hotchkiss case and identification request for 20 mm case

[Hoeksel]

I recently found 2 cases that were basically "for free" and 1 made by SMI looked funny so I bought them. They arrived today!

Case 1 is a 13.2x99 Hotchkiss case, but Italian made (SMI) and dated 1940. Very happy with this "funny" one, I had not sees an Italian 13.2 mm case before! I wonder, are these rare or did I never look good enough?

Question about the 13.2 mm case: besides "S.M.I." and "40" the headstamp also has a "I". Does anybody know the meaning?

Case 2 is a common 20x110 Hispano case. Luckily both the headstamp and crimp are different then what I normally see.

The crimp is al around, the primer has red paint, and the headstamp (12/3/6/9-o-clock) is:

A
41 --> I assume 1941
D
3

Anybody has a clue where it was manufactured?

I just love those almost freebees that keep me off the streets at night :tinysmile_hmm_t:

 

[TonyE]

20mm

From the description of the 20mm Hispano it was made at the Swiss arsenal at Altdorf (A) with case material supplied by Dornach (D).

The Italian 13.2mm is quite hard to find, although not excessively rare. I am not sure about the "I" though. It may indicate the load , but on some SMI Hotchkiss rounds the loading factory is shown.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Hoeksel]

Thanks TonyE. A Dutch collector also mentioned Altdorf, did not know about the metal supplier. And good to know the Italian Hothckiss is not that common. Happy with these!

I have seen many 20x110 Oerlikon cases marked A and D (also in my collection), but they are up to 1939....anybody seen a case of the period 1940-1945?

 

[Gunner's Brat]

I have just aquired a brass cartridge case 13.2mm X 99 marked FNB 03 ie Fabrique Nationale in Belgium with a + in a circle but not dated . I believe this would be for a Hotchkiss or Breda Mod 31 rather than a Boys 0.55 calibre that would have likely be made in a ROF in UK! Can anyone confirm that this is its useage as an Anti-tank round its very like an Oerlikon 20mm but much smaller in length and calibre.

 

[TonyE]

.50 Br

Sorry, but what you have is a .50 Browning, i.e 12.7 x 99mm made by Fabrique Nationale in 2003 (that's what the "03" is, a date). The "cross in a circle" is the NATO standardisation mark confirming the ammunition conforms to a STANAG specification. The 13.2 Hotchkiss was never NATO standardised as it went out of use with WW2.

Similarlly, the .55 Boys anti-tank round has not been made since 1943 and in any case (sorry) has a belted case.

The round you have is a regular heavy machine gun round, not an anti-tank round. These days one needs more than an HMG to get through the armour of a tank!

With respect, when trying to identify a cartridge, it is important to place it in a chronological context., i.e when was it made and what weapon systems were in use at that time. (I appreciate that you did not realise that the "03" was the date)

Regards
TonyE

 

[Gunner's Brat]

Many thanks Tony. I was obviously mislead by '03' believing it was a factory No. Not knowing a date I did do a trawl of weapons but had a difficulty with a length of '99mm'. However on measuring the id of where the bullet would have sat it does correspond to 12.7mm. The gen on Stannag and NATO is most helpfull

 

[Gunner's Brat]

Hoeksel Hi. I have an Oerlikon case fitted to a swagger stick mounting the RA Ubique badge. A very nice piece I picked up cheaply in a flea market! Its marked 41 BPF Oe Z that makes it 1941 WW2.

 

[fert]

Hi
about italian 13.2mm:
the mark "I 40" means the first lot of 1940.
SMI cases can be found up to 1939 inclusive with CT , Campo Tizzoro, home to one of the SMI factories. from 1940 cases was marked with SMI, year and lot of production.
BPD cases, are often found with "S" marking which has been attributed, perhaps incorrectly, the meaning Scoppiante (explosive) as 12.7 x81SR. but this is not documented.
only one specimen was observed with HE ball but there is no documentation that proves the adoption
http://forum.worldwar.it/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19073

bes regards

 

[Hoeksel]

Thanks for the extra info!

 

[Tony Williams]

The 13.2x99 round was used by the Italians in their Breda M31 tank machine gun, as well as in the original Hotchkiss HMGs as an AA weapon (I've seen photos of them in twin mounts on WW2 submarines).

The 13.2x99 was also used in Belgian FN-built Browning HMGs before and during WW2 (the cartridge being almost identical to the .50 Browning, only a barrel swap was required). This was availabe in ground and naval mountings and also as an aircraft gun, although it saw little use.