Japanese 120 mm case undocumented

[BOUGAINVILLE]

Hi all, :hello:

It took me a whole of 1 year since locating this case to actually owning it. The previous owner, even though they knew nothing about it, didn't want to part with it that easily.

Don't run for TM 9-1985-5 to check up on this one as it isn't described in it. There is a brief mention with a mere two sentences on page 472 acknowledging that such a case did exist but no details being available.


This is a case for the Type 11 Year 45 Calibre Low Angle Gun and is stamped Kure Naval Arsenal July 1940. It has slight coppering which is not unusual for Japanese Ammunition as sometimes they decreased the levels of zinc added to the copper in order to conserve their resources and make them go further. This is particularly seen in late war cases. The primer is missing and I tried my Mk. 1 Naval Primer and it doesn't fit so I presume that by default that it will take the Mk. 2 Naval Primer which screws in flush.

Has a few scratch marks on base from years of sitting on a floor maybe as a fishing rod or umbrella stand.

The Type 11 Year 45 Calibre Low Angle Guns were used on small escort vessels, torpedo boats and submarines during WWII.

Cheers, :cheers:
BOUGAINVILLE

 

[Slick]

Hey B'ville

I have this reference that may or may not be of some help with your new shell. U.S.N.B.D 01JULY1945

Rick

 

[BOUGAINVILLE]

Hi Rick,
That is not the one. This one is only 15 7/8" in length. As I said it is undocumented save for two sentences in TM 9-1985-5. It did state though that it strongly resembled the one you just mentioned.

Do you happen though to have a good PDF copy of U.S.N.B.D 01JULY1945 as I would really appreciate a copy.

Many thanks,
Cheers,
Robert

Hey B'ville

I have this reference that may or may not be of some help with your new shell. U.S.N.B.D 01JULY1945

Rick

 

[Slick]

Check your PM.

 

[JCB99]

nice

Nice large navy case. Japanese Navy ordnance is my favorite. I do not have anything on this case as far as reference. As aways, great photography with the photoshop added text. excellent.

JapaneseOrdnance(at)yahoo.com

Jim

 

[EODGUY]

Same issue with me. I did find another reference to the weapon, but it does not address a case of your length. It does have an interesting short cased, short range round, but entirely different. I checked all of my reports and manuals and cannot find anything on your case. Nice find!!!

 

[BOUGAINVILLE]

Hi EODGUY,

Yes all very intereting, in fact quite exciting. This could only happen with Japanese Ordnance as one always sees reference to ordnance as being known from Japanese documents but no samples being recovered.

At first when I couldn't find a reference to it I double checked everything even to make sure that it hasn't been cut down. Sure enough it looks original around the mouth and if you look at the photo you can see a few of the pin stab crimps showing.

One has also surfaced somewhere in the US which also has the same dimensions and I don't think that no two cut-offs would be exactly the same.

I notice that the pages you posted from OPNAV 30-3M are contradictory to the reference to the Type 11 Year gun on page 472 of TM 9-1985-5. The paragraph just above the Type 11 Year entry mentions about the cases being simular but different and that the exact size & description not being available.

Yes I know it is a puzzle and it just makes you wonder what else is out there.

Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE

 

[charley777]

Japanese use of British guns or copies thereof

Hello...i am no expert on these things . But it should perhaps be noted that the British QF 4.7inch Mks 2, 3, 4 CD guns used a cartridge case that was 120x404R with a rim diameter of 153mm (155mm in some sources).......in other words...basically the same as your case. Is it presumptious to suggest that the Japanese gun was a copy of the British model ? Just a thought LoL

 

[ogreve]

Hi Bougainville, Charley and others,

Charley, I think you're spot on: yesterday I checked OpNav 1667 on it (but I hadn't gotten around to writing about it), and I too read that the Japanese (apart from the short 120mm calibre) used THREE 120mm guns, two being the mentioned Type 3 and Type 11 guns, and the third type being a British 4.7" gun.

Robert: firstly: congrats on finally snaring that case! Nice one!!!
Then: I think the attachment size limitations over here will not allow me to do an excerpt of all the pages of OpNav 1667 where mention is made of the British gun (it is mentioned on several pages), but as I know you have a copy of that document, you may want to check the relevant pages by simply going towards the 120mm IJN ammo, and skipping over the pages that deal about the short round.

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[BOUGAINVILLE]

Hi,
Yes the British 4.7" guns were found of both British manufacture as well as Japanese copies. It used the same ammunition as the Japanese Naval Type 3 Year Gun as according to TM 9-1985-5 & OP 1667 both on page 472. On page 471 the length of the case is 21 5/8" and takes the extended Mk. 1 primer. Now back to page 472 it states that the size and description of the propellant case is not available for the Type 11 Year 120mm Gun but that it strongly resembled (but maybe not the same?) the propellant case used in the British 4.7" Guns and the Type 3 Year 120mm Guns.

Maybe that source could be wrong? I have already found a contradictory statement in OPNAV 30-3M stating that all three guns used the same 21 5/8" length cases but I tend to lend more weight to TM 9-1985-5/OP1667 as it was published a lot later in 1953. Of course they all used the same projectiles.

There seems to be not enough information. I have heaps of information on Japanese Army artillery but unfortunately not Navy.

Did the Commonwealth British 4.7" Naval Guns use the 15 7/8" length case with a flush primer or the 21 5/8" case with an extended primer.

Changing the subject. My OP 1667 is of such poor quality that it is useless to me. Illustrations are faded and beyond the pain staking work of touching them up with a photo editing program. Has anyone got a decent copy with decent clear illustrations? If so I would greatly appreciate a good copy.

Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE

 

[BOUGAINVILLE]

Hi,
Just rediscovered my small booklet titled "Japaese Artillery Weapons" CINCPAC-CINCPOA Bulletin No. 152-45 and in it it contains data on naval artillery as well. It is interesting to note that it gives an ever so brief reference to ammunition with each gun except the 11th Year Type where no mention is made in regards to ammunition.

Unfortunately the information given hasn't cleared things up as far as my case (ex New Guinea) is concerned.

There was though a few interesting snip bit regarding the 120 mm family of naval guns;

• The Type 10th Year Naval Gun was frequently used by Allied troops when captured in coastal emplacements.
• The Type 38 Naval Gun were of both British & Japanese manufacture. Type 38 I presume is the Japanese desination for their British Type 12 cm/45 Gun. As of 1945 these weapons had only been found on Kirska and states that these guns had been replaced by the 3rd Year Type.
• That the 11th Year Type Gun had the same bore chacteristics as the 3rd Year Type. No mention of ammunition, due I think to none being recovered as according to TM 9-1985-5.

Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE