Japanese 7,5 cm WW1 case question

[Alpini]

Hello,

there are plenty of documents about japanese 2nd WW ammunition known, but I don't know of one document about 1st WW japanese ammunition. I have this japanese 75 mm shrapnell with "lower driving band" which I believe is from 1st WW. Does anybody know which case (dimensions) belongs to this shell? I guess it was separate loaded ammunition? Nearly the same shrapnel existed during 2nd WW but according to the documents the distance driving band to base was larger. I hope the experts here for japanese ammunition can help me :hello:

 

[BOUGAINVILLE]

For in depth information on Japanese pre Showa ammunition you should contact Olaf (ogreve) in the Netherlands.

 

[Alpini]

Yes, I remember his posts, I hope he is reading here.

 

[ogreve]

Hi,

Welllll as it turns out, nowadays I don't visit BOCN very often anymore. Not that's it's not a great forum (because it is!), but simply as my time is more limited now, so I can't visit the forum on a daily basis anymore. However, my good mate Orpheus72 spotted your questions and informed me of it, so here we are.

As it turns out, you're in luck, as I can tell you quite a bit about it.

For starters, it's not from WW1, but rather it's quite a bit earlier, being from 1898-1908.

You're right, there doesn't seem to be any English documentation about the pre-Showa era ammunition, I also stumble upon that obstacle all the time. However, I have recently become acquainted with a Japanese researcher who of course has access to a much broader range of reference documentation. Communication takes place by means of translation software, and often several days or weeks pass between emails. It's a bummer that it goes so slow, but I'm grateful for all bits of information that come my way from him.

Now then for the "luck" part: one of the questions I asked him a while ago, was about the proper combinations of several old projectiles with cases. The part of it that gives a direct answer to your questions, is that you have a shrapnel projectile that was used in either the Type 31 mountain gun (case: 75x104R) or in the Type 31 field gun (case: 75x227R). I have specimens of both kinds of cases, and I have several of these projectiles that you show too.

To extend that brief answer, I'll give some more information: The type designation of 31 refers to Meiji year 31, which is 1898, being the year in which these guns were accepted into service. They were used more or less until a while after the Russo-Japanese war (1904-1905), seemingly until around 1908 or thereabouts. In 1905 the Type 38 field gun was introduced (75x294R calibre) and in 1908 the Type 41 mountain gun was introduced (75x185R calibre). These used the taller kinds of shrapnel projectiles with longer bases as you mention. These calibres seem to be (more powerful) replacements for the earlier Type 31 guns and they were used up until the end of WW2 (and the 75x185R was still used by China after WW2, at least until 1951).

Now... there is a very interesting thing about your projectile: it has a fuze fitted directly to the body, which is of a kind that is one of the predecessors of the Type 5-year 36.6 seconds powder-time/impact fuze, that was introduced in Taisho 5 (= 1916). The version that is present on yours is earlier, and I do have Japanese documentation that covers these earlier kinds too, but I'm not completely sure yet which is which. I have one of the earlier kinds too, but it's different, as mine has an all aluminium construction, whereas yours is brass-aluminium. I'm very interested in details about this fuze. Can you please add (or send) some pictures of the markings on it? I'd much like to see the date when it was manufactured.

What is even weirder though, is to see this precise combination that you have. Normally these Type 31 shrapnel projectiles are equipped with a thick fuze adapter that's most often made of brass (sometimes of steel) and then these are fitted with an early 18 seconds powder-time/impact fuze. I had not seen this projectile with such a fuze as you show on it directly. This would then either be some combination from after the Russo-Japanese war, or perhaps over the years someone incorrectly combined the fuze and the projectile. I hope I can find this out someday.

And... as for the moment of manufacture of the projectile: this kind of projectile often had the date of manufacture stamped under the driving band. In the picture you shared I think I see such markings, but I cannot make out enough of them to see what they are. Can you add or send a picture of those markings (if present)?

BTW: All of the information about the Type 31, including pictures, is subject of the third installment of my articles about Japanese ammunition that I'm writing at this time, which is about early IJA ammunition. It will be published in due time in the English and Dutch ECRA bulletins, and it will also be featured in the "Articles" section of my website.
Check this page from time to time to see if it's already there: http://www.japaneseammunition.com/start.php?main_cat=31&sub_cat=278&access=view&exp_sub_cat=278

Cheers,
Olafo

PS: You can also contact me by email (ogreve@japaneseammunition.com) if you want.

 

[Alpini]

Hello Olafo,

thank you very much for your comprehensive answer. Also thanks to Orpheus72 for notification (nice to see that some things still work in this world).

You are right it must have been made before WW1 started. It was most likely used by Russia on the east front and then captured by austro-hungarian forces and then used at the alpine front against Italy during 1st WW. It comes from Slovenia.

I have seen some other jap. 75 mm shrapnel shells in Europe but never a case which you mention.

You are also right my projectile has the usual markings below the driving band. Sadly it has had some rust in this area which makes it hard to read the stamps. I have also taken some photos from the fuze for you. There may once have been more stamps on the aluminium cap but some heartless person ruined it by sandblasting. I was happy that I could make these three visible again.

Do you know if these Typ 31 guns are Krupp guns? The ammunition has some Krupp characteristics mixed with unique japanese characteristics.

 

[fert]

Hello,
here mine, found on italian battlefield.
is the same shell. it has some paint, black body and white band above driving band.
From what I know the meiji 41 gun was the export krupp mod 1908, anyone can confirm?

 

[ogreve]

Hi guys,

Gooood stuff!

I love the story behind these two projectiles! Some further interpretation of the markings might help out, I hope you guys can fill some gaps....

Alpini's specimen:
-The projectile was manufactured in Meiji 39. The month number appears to be a semi-faded '8', which would mean the body was manufactured in August 1906.
-The fuze has an odd date. The '11' represents November. The Kanji characters to the right of it tell the rest: the top one appears to be an inspection mark, the rightmost one is the 'Taisho' era indicator and the marking(s) directly to the left of it is/are odd. They appear to read '29', but.... 'Taisho 29' doesn't exist! I think it may initially have been manufactured in Taisho 2 (i.e. 1913) and it appears the '2' was later overstamped with a '9', which could mean that the fuze was re-issued in Taisho 9 = 1920! I'm not completely sure of this as normally I'd expect the entire older date to have been crossed out!

Fert's specimen:
-I cannot see a date below the driving band, I wonder if one's present (not all of my specimens have dates there, the very early ones do not). The white band though by all accounts appears to be a marking style that was introduced around the end of the Russo Japanese war. It is uncommon to see it on these short shrapnel bodies. I have only one specimen that has it and that one is from May 1906. I'd say yours was likely ink marked in 1905 or later.
-The fuze has a nearly identical odd date marking as Alpini's specimen has. Again we see a Taisho era marker and to the left of it a '9' can be discerned and it looks like it has a Kanji '1' or '2' above it. The month number is '12' for December. It again seems likely that it was initially manufactured in December 1912 or December 1913, and then re-issued in 1920!

Then... Look at the other similarities! For all the ammo I see in Japan, of which a good deal consists of these short shrapnel projectiles, I can't remember from the top of my head having seen ANY specimen over there with this kind of fuze on it! Yet... here we are.... TWO such specimens pop up in Europe (of all places), and in neighbour countries and with highly similar fuze date markings at that!
By all accounts it would seem that these would have been issued (and used) for the same campaigns then!
Very interesting!
Please pardon my ignorance, but even though I'm European I don't know exactly what kind of military campaigns took place in the interbellum (most likely the early 1920s) in that region. Can anyone tell me this?
I do know that Japan made at least substantial volumes of 76.2x385R cases (and perhaps projectiles too?) for export to Russia in 1915 and 1916 and I also have very strong indications that around the same time export of 47x131R, 47x376R and 57x306R ammo to the UK took place. It would seem very likely that the Japanese fulfilled a contract for some force(s) in the region of Slovenia and Italy too then!
Japanese ammunition is so sparsely seen in Europe that IMO even as few as these two specimens are a quite strong indication to me that the batch(es) for this purpose was/were produced/re-issued in (and possibly around) 1920. By that time this calibre was long since superseded in Japan itself and it is quite likely that they simply sold off vast amounts of surplus ammo that was produced shortly after the Russo Japanese war.

As for the questions regarding Krupp: that's another thing for which strong indications exist. One thing that is for sure is that the Japanese used the "4 thin-banded" shrapnel and HE projectiles that were of Krupp design. The IJA (i.e. Imperial Japanese Army) seemed to like Krupp designs. There's another type of projectile in several calibres like 75mm and 105mm with a wide lower driving band and a copper upper bourrelet driving band of which I also have seen mention that they were used in Krupp guns, but I'm not yet certain whether these were only used by Russia or also by Japan. Then, I have a 1911 Chinese (Shanghai arsenal) 75x116R case (again for a Krupp design gun) that has a primer that's marked 'Fri?? Krupp' (the two ? marks represent one or two illegible letters). I also have a "Berndorf 1913 40" (Austria) manufactured 75x116R export case that came out of Japan. It seems the Krupp designs were very popular in the Asian region around that time.

Now that these questions are being asked: they actually fit reallllly well in the line of investigation I'm doing right now for my current article. I too wondered which of the IJA guns were of Krupp design. Can someone perhaps post some pictures of the ammo that was used in the guns mentioned earlier in this thread? In particular of the projectiles with wide lower copper DB and upper copper DB at the bourrelet, also of the cases and projectiles of Krupp manufactured items that would match those calibres seen in the pictures in this thread and of course also of the 75mm 1908 gun that's mentioned. I can easily add pictures of the Japanese specimens, but I'm wondering if someone can tell something about the Krupp ones...

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[MINENAZ16]

Hello,

The fuze shown is it similar to this one described as Type 5th year ?
(maybe I missed something !)
Regards

 

[ogreve]

Hi,

Thanks for adding the docs on the Type 5-year fuze. Yes, the thing you overlooked was what I briefly mentioned in reaction #4: there were two 36.6 seconds predecessor fuzes to the Type 5-year one.
I have a very nice book about Japanese fuzes but unfortunately the information in it is all locked away (for me, at least) in Japanese. Nonetheless, I can read the Kanji type numbers, and the drawings are pretty clear.
The following three (!) different kinds of 36.6 seconds fuzes are detailed:
-Type 38 (introduced in Meiji 38 = 1905)
-Type 41 (introduced in Meiji 41 = 1908)
-Type 5-year (introduced in Taisho 5 = 1916)

AFAIK the Type 5-year fuze is always (?) completely made of brass.
I have seen several pictures of the fuzes that are also shown in the pictures here. They appear to have an all-brass construction except for an aluminium nose cap. I do not yet have such a fuze but would really like to obtain one. There is also one that has an all-aluminium construction. I do have one of those and at times I see pictures of it.
It's very frustrating to not be able to read the text in the fuze book; I'm quite sure ALL the answers I'm looking for about these fuzes are right there. I don't want to flood my very sparse Japanese resources with all sorts of translation requests though, so I hope to find someone who can translate selected parts of the book for me someday.

Now, I'm not sure what the precise differences are between these 3 36.6 seconds fuzes. The drawings look almost identical. It's something I'll have to figure out at ease. I do think, however, that these all-aluminium and composite brass-aluminium fuzes are Type 38s and/or Type 41s. The all aluminium one that I have has a date stamped in it of "6 Meiji 45" (= June 1912), which is late enough to possibly be either the Type 38 or Type 41 (no idea which one precisely) but that's years before the Type 5-year fuze was introduced.
As for the two fuzes shown in this thread: if indeed they were first manufactured in Taisho 1 or Taisho 2, they too would be too early for being a Type 5-year fuze.

I'll try to get to the bottom of it, but it's going to take a while before I'll have the answers, I fear....

Meanwhile: the questions about the Krupp guns are still open (see reaction #7): can someone answer those, perhaps?

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[fert]

Hello,
thank you for your post.
here pic with marking


about 75x116, do you mean these cases?
used on 7,5cm M13 L/14 Krupp export for china


I found a similar case but unknown for me, case not botlle necked maybe Alpini can help to ID.

best regards

 

[Alpini]

Please pardon my ignorance, but even though I'm European I don't know exactly what kind of military campaigns took place in the interbellum (most likely the early 1920s) in that region. Can anyone tell me this?
I do know that Japan made at least substantial volumes of 76.2x385R cases (and perhaps projectiles too?) for export to Russia in 1915 and 1916 and I also have very strong indications that around the same time export of 47x131R, 47x376R and 57x306R ammo to the UK took place. It would seem very likely that the Japanese fulfilled a contract for some force(s) in the region of Slovenia and Italy too then!

No other military campaign than the First World War. Russia used japanese guns and ammunition on the eastern front and the German and also Austro-Hungarian empire captured this material. I am unsure about Germany but Austro-Hungary for sure used these japanese guns on the mountain front lines in the Alps against Italy (today Slovenia and northern Italy) somewhere between 1915-1918. With the beginning of the war against Italy in 1915 Austria considered this front against Italy a secondary front (in German "Salonfront" and sent many obsolete artillery pieces in this area. Captured guns fit well into this behaviour. Later when they recognized that italy was well equipped they changed this strategy.

I also read about a german WW1 manual about captured japanese ammunition but sadly did not hold it in my hands so I can't tell which ammunition exactly was captured.

After first World War the estonian forces used the 36 sec. and the 18 sec. japanese fuzes. I guess they got them from Russia.