Found this on the local carboot this morning amongst other old stuff being sold by an old chap. All he knew of it was that it came from Burma after WW2. As you can see from the headstampings its deffo Japanese army but not sure if its a cut-down shell case. Ive looked at the case opening under magnifier and cant see any tell-tale marks usually left by the cutting process so is this a 'Stub-Case'? Its 75mm diameter and approx 118mm long. Be great if anyone can id the headstampings all in Jap on this one. Got it for 10 which i dont think was bad at all. Regards, Tim.
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Japanese 75mm Shell Case-Carboot Find!
- Thread starter Jagd301
- Start date
Its certainly interesting and unusual! It has the star symbol which i think denotes Japanese Army but other than that havent the foggiest idea on this one.
Perhaps its older than WW2 and dates back to an earlier Jap campaign???
BOUGAINVILLE
Well-Known Member
Yes most unusal headstamps. Certainly not standard. If you want to get it translated just visit the Japanese Collectors Board at gunboards.com where you will find some fluent readers of Japanese kanji. I have pasted the link below.
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?52-Firearms-Of-The-Rising-Sun
Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?52-Firearms-Of-The-Rising-Sun
Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE
Thanks for that and will see if i can send an image to them to see if anyone can help. Regards, Tim.
H
Hoeksel
Guest
Strange case indeed. The dimensions I do not know for a Japanese case, so I think it is cut down. There is however an Austrian case (field gun model 1905) that measures 75.3x118R88.
The markings I have never seen. Can anybody confirm the primer is Japanese?
I will show the thread to a friend of mine that specializes in Japanese stuff.
Regards,
Kornel
The markings I have never seen. Can anybody confirm the primer is Japanese?
I will show the thread to a friend of mine that specializes in Japanese stuff.
Regards,
Kornel
Cheers as that would be great! Ive never seen one with headstampings like this. I know the Japanese made their own copies of many German guns so this may be what you have described. I have looked closely at the case mouth and can see no signs of cutting which would leave at least some tell tale marks. Will be interesting to see if any other members can come up with anything on this one. Regards, Tim.
H
Hoeksel
Guest
Does the rim of your case match the 88 mm?
A chap emailed earlier to say he had seen similar one in his local militaria shop some time ago. It had label on stating it was Russo-Japanese War 75-mm shell case and had been decorated with flowers on its body, it was same dimensions as mine but unfortunately he did not look at the base so doesnt know what the headstamping was. He did confirm the star symbols as Japanese Army marking.
The base diameter is approx 85mm.
Hi,
Cool case!
I'm the one called in by Hoeksel, and I agree that this headstamp doesn't look like anything I've seen of Japanese origin, so far...
I may be sticking out my head, and I may be completely wrong, but my gut feeling is that it may be a Chinese case; somehow the Kanji (apart from the numerals (i.e. '5' at the 12 o'clock position, and '7' at the 1 o'clock position), which are the same in both languages) strike me as being Chinese. No standard Japanese headstamp style is used (neither IJA nor IJN), and I do not really agree that the star looks like the typical Japanese army one, as the one displayed on the headstamp (3 times over!) is a pentagram, whereas the IJA stars I've seen were always 5 pointed stars (and I've never seen them on cases anyway), but not pentagrams (i.e. no 'inner lines').
Either way: nothing of the case looks Japanese to me (except for the numerals): the calibre is not known to me (which, however, is not strange for old Japanese cases), the headstamp style looks completely off, same for the primer....
Nonetheless I could be mistaken, of course, and Hoeksel's suggestion is a very interesting one: I've attached pictures of a 1905 'Japanese' case, manufactured by 'Berndorf', and then date-stamped (in proper IJA style!) with proper Meiji date indication. I myself also have a Meiji era case (1904; roughly measuring 76.2x104R -or thereabouts-), which also follows the typical (be it slightly different from the Showa era headstamps) IJA headstamp style. It should be noted that both these cases have a very different, fixed, primer. Also, Japanese primers tended to be stamped. The western '3' on the headstamp is interesting. It is not placed in such a way that it could be a month indicator. Possibly this suggests foreign manufacture...
As for the case itself: the rim diameter mismatch by 3mm might not be of significance (could still be measuring differences), but then again, it may...
A good thing to check (in order to check if the case is cut down), is to check the thickness of the brass at the case mouth: it should normally be pretty thinnish, if it is of proper size, whereas cut down cases tend to have much thicker brass walls at the case 'mouth'. This may not be a definitive check, but it tends to give a very good indication...
Regarding the remarks made by the mentioned person who states that the other specimen dates back to the Russo-Japanese war: this might be true, but it may also be just an assumption made by someone (not very uncommon to come across that phenomenon; it has happened to me on many occasions where things said by people simply couldn't even be true).
A few months ago GI Zhou helped me excellently with some translations of Chinese headstamps. I'm certain he could shed a light on this...
Edit 1: my Meiji era case is described in detail in this thread: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/japanese-meiji-era-t45764.html?t=45764 (ever since, I did receive a partial translation of the Kanji that are marked in red, but it wasn't a contextual one, so I'd like to still get that someday)
Edit 2: I just added pictures of both Meiji cases; the first four pictures are all of the Berndorf case (unfortunately not part of my collection), with the following dimensions: 81x230R, with a 95mm rim diameter. The other 5 pictures are of my Osaka manufactured 1904 case, which has a (measured) calibre of approx. 76.2x104R, with a rim diameter of 84mm. Note that both cases feature the 'double rim' type (what's the proper term for this?), just like e.g. a 17Pr case does...
Cheers,
Olafo
Cool case!
I'm the one called in by Hoeksel, and I agree that this headstamp doesn't look like anything I've seen of Japanese origin, so far...
I may be sticking out my head, and I may be completely wrong, but my gut feeling is that it may be a Chinese case; somehow the Kanji (apart from the numerals (i.e. '5' at the 12 o'clock position, and '7' at the 1 o'clock position), which are the same in both languages) strike me as being Chinese. No standard Japanese headstamp style is used (neither IJA nor IJN), and I do not really agree that the star looks like the typical Japanese army one, as the one displayed on the headstamp (3 times over!) is a pentagram, whereas the IJA stars I've seen were always 5 pointed stars (and I've never seen them on cases anyway), but not pentagrams (i.e. no 'inner lines').
Either way: nothing of the case looks Japanese to me (except for the numerals): the calibre is not known to me (which, however, is not strange for old Japanese cases), the headstamp style looks completely off, same for the primer....
Nonetheless I could be mistaken, of course, and Hoeksel's suggestion is a very interesting one: I've attached pictures of a 1905 'Japanese' case, manufactured by 'Berndorf', and then date-stamped (in proper IJA style!) with proper Meiji date indication. I myself also have a Meiji era case (1904; roughly measuring 76.2x104R -or thereabouts-), which also follows the typical (be it slightly different from the Showa era headstamps) IJA headstamp style. It should be noted that both these cases have a very different, fixed, primer. Also, Japanese primers tended to be stamped. The western '3' on the headstamp is interesting. It is not placed in such a way that it could be a month indicator. Possibly this suggests foreign manufacture...
As for the case itself: the rim diameter mismatch by 3mm might not be of significance (could still be measuring differences), but then again, it may...
A good thing to check (in order to check if the case is cut down), is to check the thickness of the brass at the case mouth: it should normally be pretty thinnish, if it is of proper size, whereas cut down cases tend to have much thicker brass walls at the case 'mouth'. This may not be a definitive check, but it tends to give a very good indication...
Regarding the remarks made by the mentioned person who states that the other specimen dates back to the Russo-Japanese war: this might be true, but it may also be just an assumption made by someone (not very uncommon to come across that phenomenon; it has happened to me on many occasions where things said by people simply couldn't even be true).
A few months ago GI Zhou helped me excellently with some translations of Chinese headstamps. I'm certain he could shed a light on this...
Edit 1: my Meiji era case is described in detail in this thread: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/japanese-meiji-era-t45764.html?t=45764 (ever since, I did receive a partial translation of the Kanji that are marked in red, but it wasn't a contextual one, so I'd like to still get that someday)
Edit 2: I just added pictures of both Meiji cases; the first four pictures are all of the Berndorf case (unfortunately not part of my collection), with the following dimensions: 81x230R, with a 95mm rim diameter. The other 5 pictures are of my Osaka manufactured 1904 case, which has a (measured) calibre of approx. 76.2x104R, with a rim diameter of 84mm. Note that both cases feature the 'double rim' type (what's the proper term for this?), just like e.g. a 17Pr case does...
Cheers,
Olafo
Attachments
Last edited:
Hi again,
An interesting follow-up: attached to this reaction are two pictures of Chinese 1930s 75x212R headstamps. The first one is not mine, and is equipped with an interesting primer-adapter, and a Japanese primer (seemingly this case was used by the Japanese, for captured Chinese weapons, somewhere after their occupation in 1937). My case misses the primer, but the overall size and shape (and three indentations for (un)screwing it) look very similar to the primer on your case. I don't have the rim dimensions handy here, so I shall look them up tonight or tomorrow, but possibly the case you have is a shortened sample of this type of case...
Cheers!
Olafo
An interesting follow-up: attached to this reaction are two pictures of Chinese 1930s 75x212R headstamps. The first one is not mine, and is equipped with an interesting primer-adapter, and a Japanese primer (seemingly this case was used by the Japanese, for captured Chinese weapons, somewhere after their occupation in 1937). My case misses the primer, but the overall size and shape (and three indentations for (un)screwing it) look very similar to the primer on your case. I don't have the rim dimensions handy here, so I shall look them up tonight or tomorrow, but possibly the case you have is a shortened sample of this type of case...
Cheers!
Olafo
Attachments
This has certainly proved an interesting case to crack and certainly looks to be more of Chinese origin now. If only the lettering could be translated, what might it reveal? The case mouth is thin so i beleive that it hasnt been cut down and it appears nice and level with no uneveness to it. Some great information coming from the BOCN members here! Regards, Tim.
Thats a bloody good idea mate now why didnt i think of that one lol! Weve got loads of Chinese Takeaways in our town and i will drop in and see what they say! Will post up the results when i get it sorted. Regards, Tim.
Well then, that's (possibly) good news: I just measured the rim of my Chinese 75x212R case, and that rim measures 90mm; quite the difference!
I also measured the diameter of the primer pocket, as I'd guess this could make for an exact match with the one of your case, it measures 33mm.
As a general observation: the base of your case, with pretty wide rim, looks very similar to the base of my Chinese case. I'm getting more and more convinced your case is Chinese, and it may very well be of correct length.
As for the headstamp writings: my case (as well as the other case of the same dimensions) feature the year and month of manufacture in Kanji, and it also features an arsenal mark, on the two mentioned cases shown by the double diamond; on your case possibly the pentagrams, though these may also be separators for specific parts of writing. Finally, below the arsenal mark on the mentioned cases, there is a Kanji character indicating the province of manufacture. If your case is Chinese, I would expect the headstamp to also contain this information, and then some more, judging by the further characters.
Cheers,
Olafo
Hi again,
A follow-up, after some more research on my behalf.
As I didn't manage to find someone who could contextually translate the headstamp, I printed the headstamp and took the picture to our favourite Chinese restaurant, where one of the owners speaks little else than Chinese.
It took them some puzzling (especially regarding the date), but most of it has been translated now, be it out of the proper context.
My assumptions were correct: it is indeed a Chinese case, and as it turns out, it was manufactured in Shanghai, and almost certainly in 1900. As is often the case with Japanese and Chinese writing, this headstamp needs to be read from right to left. The stars seem to be arsenal marks, or perhaps more likely, simply separators for logical pieces of text. I have added numbers to the Kanji, and have written the translations, including some assumptions of mine, down below the picture, as far as I've got it translated at present. Tonight (or thereabouts) I'm going to revisit a Japanese/Chinese restaurant where I also took the picture too, and was told to return after the weekend. Maybe they can fill in some further gaps...
As a rough transcript of the way it was translated, the first ones that were recognised were the ones I knew myself too, being the numerals '7' and '5', next up was the recognition of nrs. 1 and 2, which read as 'Shanghai', then 3-4 were identified as 'machine' and 5 as 'branch'; with this part of the headstamp (i.e. 1-5) reading as something like 'Shanghai machine branch', I figure the contextually right way to read this to be either 'Shanghai arsenal' or 'Shanghai factory' or so.
Next, the part with the numerals... this is the most mysterious part still. The '7' and the '5' are obvious, but the Kanji in between it was translated as 'life' (yes: with an 'f', not with a 'v'). The nr. 10 Kanji is one I recognised from Japanese ammo, where it reads 'dan' and seems to be used for indicating 'ammo'. The owner of the Chinese restaurant agreed that that's a good possibility in Chinese too, with the Kanji at nr. 11 possibly being a type of round. the '7 life 5' part doesn't make much sense to me, but a bold assumption (or perhaps just a wild guess) of mine is that perhaps the 'life' Kanji is used as a decimal separator, and that nrs. 7-9 read as something like '7.5' or '7,5', which could be a calibre indication. The two Kanji at nrs. 10 and 11 could then be an indication of the type of round.
Finally, the date section (i.e. nrs. 12-16) is nicely readable by them (though they had to look up the date too, as such can even be difficult to read properly for the Chinese themselves, and dates can be repeated, when written in short format). The Kanji at nr. 14 is the same as in Japanese, and means 'year', the Kanji at nrs. 15 and 16 read as 'manufactured', and the ones at 12-13 are the year, in abbreviated format. The year was looked up on a calendar, and the only two alternatives are 1900 and 1970. Obviously the case is far older than 1970, so it seems to be 1900.
Fun work researching this... More to come, as I find out more...
Cheers,
Olafo
A follow-up, after some more research on my behalf.
As I didn't manage to find someone who could contextually translate the headstamp, I printed the headstamp and took the picture to our favourite Chinese restaurant, where one of the owners speaks little else than Chinese.
It took them some puzzling (especially regarding the date), but most of it has been translated now, be it out of the proper context.
My assumptions were correct: it is indeed a Chinese case, and as it turns out, it was manufactured in Shanghai, and almost certainly in 1900. As is often the case with Japanese and Chinese writing, this headstamp needs to be read from right to left. The stars seem to be arsenal marks, or perhaps more likely, simply separators for logical pieces of text. I have added numbers to the Kanji, and have written the translations, including some assumptions of mine, down below the picture, as far as I've got it translated at present. Tonight (or thereabouts) I'm going to revisit a Japanese/Chinese restaurant where I also took the picture too, and was told to return after the weekend. Maybe they can fill in some further gaps...
As a rough transcript of the way it was translated, the first ones that were recognised were the ones I knew myself too, being the numerals '7' and '5', next up was the recognition of nrs. 1 and 2, which read as 'Shanghai', then 3-4 were identified as 'machine' and 5 as 'branch'; with this part of the headstamp (i.e. 1-5) reading as something like 'Shanghai machine branch', I figure the contextually right way to read this to be either 'Shanghai arsenal' or 'Shanghai factory' or so.
Next, the part with the numerals... this is the most mysterious part still. The '7' and the '5' are obvious, but the Kanji in between it was translated as 'life' (yes: with an 'f', not with a 'v'). The nr. 10 Kanji is one I recognised from Japanese ammo, where it reads 'dan' and seems to be used for indicating 'ammo'. The owner of the Chinese restaurant agreed that that's a good possibility in Chinese too, with the Kanji at nr. 11 possibly being a type of round. the '7 life 5' part doesn't make much sense to me, but a bold assumption (or perhaps just a wild guess) of mine is that perhaps the 'life' Kanji is used as a decimal separator, and that nrs. 7-9 read as something like '7.5' or '7,5', which could be a calibre indication. The two Kanji at nrs. 10 and 11 could then be an indication of the type of round.
Finally, the date section (i.e. nrs. 12-16) is nicely readable by them (though they had to look up the date too, as such can even be difficult to read properly for the Chinese themselves, and dates can be repeated, when written in short format). The Kanji at nr. 14 is the same as in Japanese, and means 'year', the Kanji at nrs. 15 and 16 read as 'manufactured', and the ones at 12-13 are the year, in abbreviated format. The year was looked up on a calendar, and the only two alternatives are 1900 and 1970. Obviously the case is far older than 1970, so it seems to be 1900.
Fun work researching this... More to come, as I find out more...
Cheers,
Olafo
Attachments
Last edited:
H
Hoeksel
Guest
Good work Olaf! Indeed an interesting case.
Seriously good detective work Olaf! At least we can confirm 100% that this is deffinately Chinese and not Japanese and dates from 1900 and is a 75mm shell casing. Well done!