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keeping and storing live blanks

P

peashooter

BOCN Supporter
I would like some one to clarify the keeping, owning & storing of live blanks.

Do you need a fac & do you need to lock them up or can you have them on show at the moment all my blanks are deactivated but I have some living one coming and I would really like to not have to drill them and spoil the case

many thanks
Richard.
 
The firearms act is very protracted but as I recall owning live blanks up to 1 inch in diameter without any FAC is legal & you do not have to have them locked away.
BUT! It is preffered by many constabularies that any ordnance collection is not easily viewable by anyone. Namely best kept in a nice glass cased lockable display cabinet keeps them happy(er!) & that cabinet is tucked out of site through windows etc.
Going off on a slight tangent any inert rounds I suply to re-enactors etc now I try to persuade them to take them with the primer removed as it has been known for a zealous copper to claim even a struck primer in a case with an unfired & securely set bullet may actualy just be a misfire & therefore is still deemed live. May sound like poo to many of you but unfortunately I have had Suffolks finest here & had a couple of hours going through my whole collection with a civil but worrying conversation/interview!!!
At the end of the day common sense & sound judgement should prevail for any collector & as I have found with my local firearms officer if you collection is displayed sensibly & discretely (not always easy) then it is understood that whilst you may be a bit `strange` in your choice of hobby you are not a threat to anyone or national security! If only Evil Bay understood all this!!??
On the matter of blanks I have a varied selection spare for sale or swap including bulleted ones & drill/training rounds.
 
Wood or paper bulleted blanks are classed as section 1 ammunition as they have a projectile, even though it is intended to break up in the barrel.
 
Alhough we are assured by the suppliers of such things that there is nothing illegal about unstruck dummy or oiled primers,I have often wondered what reaction one might expect when an "official visitor" is confronted with,perhaps,hundreds of rounds,all with securely set,unfired bullets and unstruck primers?

As Falcon says,any live blank with anything designed to leave the casing upon firing is,perhaps,problematic.I do have a couple of pre WW1 .303 blanks with securely fitted brass mock bullets,as these were not designed to part company with the case when fired,hopefully,I'm alright with those.

Regards Chris.
 
Legalities etc.

I believe some people place a small washer, nut, or other metal object in the case of inert rounds so that it rattles when shaken to prove there is no powder present. I am not sure how convincing this is though.

Unbulleted blanks are not subject to the Act, but as Falcon says, bulleted blanks of any type are considered Section 1.

I know that many people consider that going the fully legal route and applying for a firearms certificate is too much hassle, but in the end it is worth it. Apart from the purely legal aspect, it makes getting the rounds you want a lot easier.

Also, everybody should join the European Cartridge Research Association or (preferably and) the International Ammunition Association.

Regards
TonyE
 
Good point Falcon - forgot that about the bulleted blanks. Fortunately for me the police did not pursue that point & took my display cabinet/colection for what it was.
As to applying for a FAC Tony is it possible to get on with a section just for ammunition?
I thought you had to be in a club, a gamekeeper or land owner & show good reason to apply & then be specific aboutcaliber & firearm?

Peashooter I have a short & a long case .455 card wadded blank, a short wadded 12 bore blank, a plastic 5.56 blank, wood bulleted .303 H/S GA AI 53, 5.56 training/drill, 7.62 blank H/S L13A1 RG 84, bulleted blank Swede 6.5 x 55, fired 30-06 blank (the one that when live has a red dic in the top instead of being crimped), unfired .303`s x 3 H/S VIIz 1941 ^^, RG L9Z 73 & no H/S, Unfired crimped 7.92/8mm H/S IVI 89, & 30-06 AMA 56. If you email me I can send pics
 
Fac

It should be possible to have an FAC just for ammunition, if one is a member of a recognised cartridge collecting association.

Although I have had my FAC for nearly fifty years and currently have firearms on it, I only had ammunition for collection on it for about ten years after I gave up competetive target shooting. That was with both the Met and Surrey.

I have recently helped a friend with his application for one and he is waiting to receive it. His police force did not reject it out of hand.

Regards
TonyE
 
Cheers for the info Tony
After my little `misunderstanding` last year it might be prudent to apply for a section one FAC just for the collection although I would need 5 as well as some of my collection include this class! I`m sure I am not alone on this wee technicality!!??
I am looking to get a FAC & join a club anyway.
Already have shotgun & now I am back in country & settled I want to get back into comp shooting. I also have permission to shoot some land as I only have 1/3 acre.
 
Blanks

Hi all,
There is also a limit to the amount of blanks you can keep unrestricted in weight,not 100% sure but somewhere around 2-2.5 kilo,above that you need an explosives licence,which effectivly rules out ammo tins full of GPMG blanks ect
Cheers
Tony
 
If it's loaded in the cartridge i.e. not loose in a big drum, the limit is 15kg (of explosive) Thats 16,000 12G carts. 4,000 short of a pallet load and cheap ammo :-(
 
Limit

I am not sure that is true actually, as I think the Explosives regulations only apply to loose powder in cans. I do not believe it applies to loaded rounds.

Even if it did, the average 7.62mm blank is loaded with about 12 grains of propellant, which makes about 580 rounds per kilo, and if the limit is 5 kilos (which I think it is) then that is a lot of blanks (nearly 3,000).

I have tried to check on the net, but could not find a definitive answer.

Regards
TonyE
 
15kg ammunition, 5kg loose

The Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations 2005

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -


  • (a) the storage of explosives by a person registered in accordance with regulation 11;

    (b) the storage of one or more of the following -

    • (i) no more than 10 kilograms of black powder;

      (ii) no more than 5 kilograms of -

      • (aa) shooters' powder;

        (bb) any explosive or combination of explosives listed in Schedule 1 to the Control of Explosives Regulations 1991; or

        (cc) a combination of shooters' powder and any one or more of the explosives listed in Schedule 1 to those Regulations;

      (iii) no more than 15 kilograms of percussion caps or small arms ammunition or a mixture of them;
 
I have been looking as well,I did see it somewhere and it refered to blank ammunition as a whole unit,not just the powder inside of them,tin of 200 linked 7.62mm = 5.2kg(not including tin),box of 1,000 5.56mm = 9.40kg(not including box)I will carry on looking and post it when I find it:tinysmile_cry_t2:
Cheers
Tony
 
Just been reading this thread re explosive regs and quantities etc. Charlies lift from MSER 2005 is correct. I will try to unravel it a bit for everyone -
If you are keeping small arms ammunition (including blanks) and NO OTHER explosives of any description ( fireworks, propellants etc but not including blackpowder) in the premises you may keep a maximum of 20kgs ( net explosive content). This is made up of the 15kg of SAA permitted at Regulation 10(2)(b)(iii) plus 5kg using the allowance at 10(2)(b)(ii)(bb) which comes from the fact that SAA are explosives listed on Schedule 1 to Control of Explosives Regs 1991 - See Charlies post in red above.

If anyone requires an explanation of other combinations of explosives/ammunition that can be stored without a license I am happy to assist. It takes us the best part of half a day to unravel this part of MSER to police officers and staff who have to enforce it.

With regard to blank ammunition - anything below 1inch in diameter is exempted from control under the Firearms Acts unless fitted with a projectile such as the .303 bulleted blanks. The 1 inch is measured at a point immediatley forward of the rim of the cartridge.
 
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hopefully attached a jpeg of a cartridge explosives weight chart
 

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Exat808,

Unless I'm reading this wrong. There could be the situation, where, if one prefers to collect the larger calibres. That, notwithstanding that the quantity held would be legal with respect to one's FAC, one could easily fall foul of the above legislation, correct?

Regards

TimG
 
Quite correct TimG - there are2 distinct elements here.
1. Your FAC will permit the possession of specified quantities of ammunition as part of a collection.

but this can lead you to fall foul of:

2. The quantities of explosives that may be kept without a license or registration in accordance with the Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations (MSER) 2005.

There is no requirement for a licensing authority ( the police) to inform FAC holders of the need to comply with MSER - maybe an easy trap to fall in to!

Another issue that may be of interest to some is that MSER permits the "unmaking" of SAA without a license provided that the quantity of propellant and primers at any one time does not exceed 2kg. This is ok if you are disposing of the propellant but if it is kept then any quantity over 5kg requires the site to be registered or licensed.
 
Exat808,

Many thanks. For those who already hold a FAC would there be much involved to become licensed or registered in accordance with the Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations (MSER) 2005?

TimG
 
Registration is the easier and cheaper option here. Licensing, when dealing with SAA is only really for quantities in excess of 250kg nec - thats an awful lot of rounds.

If the only explosives being kept are SAA then the licensing authority for storage under MSER is the Local Authority (usually Trading Standards), in some metropolitan areas it is the Fire and Rescue Service. If you are keeping loose propellants( smokeless powders or black powder) as well as SAA then the licensing authority reverts to the Police.

Actual registration under MSER is a fairly simple process. It will involve a visit from the licensing authority to consider matters relative to the suitability of the site (presence of other dangerous substances, security etc). The applicant must be a "fit" person but you may assume that if you hold an FAC then you will tick the right boxes under MSER.

As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread - if the only explosives being kept are SAA then a max of 20kg nec may be kept without registration or licence.
 
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