Marked on the box as Nitro Celulose Powder British Mark VII Model Air Service. Batch Code 10/28
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Kynoch .303 Air Service Cartridges
- Thread starter LCplCombat
- Start date
Marked on the box as Nitro Celulose Powder British Mark VII Model Air Service. Batch Code 10/28
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Kynoch Air Service
These were a standard export product from Kynoch for the many countries that used the .303 inch Vickers and Lewis guns in their aircraft.
These were certainly supplied to Estonia and Latvia who were re-equipped with British aircraft and weapons after WWI. The lot that came into the UK a few years ago came from the Baltic countries.
They were also supplied to Norway. The smoke tracer was the equivalent of the Buckingham Mark II with the spitzer bullet. My example is headstamped "K 27 VIIB". It is interesting that despite being nitro-cellulose loaded and Air Service, the headstamp includes neirther the full four digit date nor the "Z". Perhaps this is because those are strictly speaking British military requirements. Also, why is the ball box red? It should be buff and the tracer box red.
Regards
TonyE
These were a standard export product from Kynoch for the many countries that used the .303 inch Vickers and Lewis guns in their aircraft.
These were certainly supplied to Estonia and Latvia who were re-equipped with British aircraft and weapons after WWI. The lot that came into the UK a few years ago came from the Baltic countries.
They were also supplied to Norway. The smoke tracer was the equivalent of the Buckingham Mark II with the spitzer bullet. My example is headstamped "K 27 VIIB". It is interesting that despite being nitro-cellulose loaded and Air Service, the headstamp includes neirther the full four digit date nor the "Z". Perhaps this is because those are strictly speaking British military requirements. Also, why is the ball box red? It should be buff and the tracer box red.
Regards
TonyE
smle2009
Well-Known Member
Hi TonyE,
Could the red box be a Kynoch ref to the earlier "red label" aircraft grade ammunition?
Cheers
Tony
Kynoch Air Service Ammo.
Hi TonyE,
Have you ever seen a box of this "contract" ammo for a flame tracer, rather than the smoke tracer/incendiary? Although I have the three boxes that were shown at the start of this thread, I have never seen one for any other type.
Roger.
Hi TonyE,
Have you ever seen a box of this "contract" ammo for a flame tracer, rather than the smoke tracer/incendiary? Although I have the three boxes that were shown at the start of this thread, I have never seen one for any other type.
Roger.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Flame Tracer
I cannot recall whether I have seen a flame tracer box or not, I certainly do not have one. However, they must exist as I have rounds headstamped "K 31 VIIG" and "K 38 VIIG", plus the Kynoch drawings for them, and these are export headstamps.
Tony - That is a possibility, but then why the normal colours of green for AP and blue for incendiary. That was all "Red Label" as well.
I have labels for .5D that are buff for ball and then appropriately coloured for the other loads. I know that it is not "Red Label", but if that was their normal practice to do otherwise for the .303 is confusing.
Regards
TonyE
I cannot recall whether I have seen a flame tracer box or not, I certainly do not have one. However, they must exist as I have rounds headstamped "K 31 VIIG" and "K 38 VIIG", plus the Kynoch drawings for them, and these are export headstamps.
Tony - That is a possibility, but then why the normal colours of green for AP and blue for incendiary. That was all "Red Label" as well.
I have labels for .5D that are buff for ball and then appropriately coloured for the other loads. I know that it is not "Red Label", but if that was their normal practice to do otherwise for the .303 is confusing.
Regards
TonyE
smle2009
Well-Known Member
Hi TonyE,
The green AP and blue incendiary boxes pictured above are also not marked Air service, so perhaps not aircraft grade? which also makes me wonder if there are also 'standard' ball export rounds in buff boxes out there?
Still would confuse the red for tracer boxes though!?
Cheers
Tony
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Air Service
Hi Tony.
Good point, I did not spot that.
Actually it is interesting, as it supports how these were used. In British service the Vickers firing forward through the propellor was normally only used for ball and tracer ammo. AP and incendiary was usually reserved for Lewis guns, either firing over the top wing or the observers gun, as these loads would do far more damage if they hit the prop. As such, they did not need to be of Air Service quality, which was mainly concerned with ignition times.
As for packet colours, here are two Kynoch labels that are contemporary with the ones under discussion. As you can see, the ball is buff coloured and the tracer red.
On balance, I think you may be right that the .303 packet is coloured that way to indicate Red Label, no matter how confusing it may be.
Regards
TonyE
Hi Tony.
Good point, I did not spot that.
Actually it is interesting, as it supports how these were used. In British service the Vickers firing forward through the propellor was normally only used for ball and tracer ammo. AP and incendiary was usually reserved for Lewis guns, either firing over the top wing or the observers gun, as these loads would do far more damage if they hit the prop. As such, they did not need to be of Air Service quality, which was mainly concerned with ignition times.
As for packet colours, here are two Kynoch labels that are contemporary with the ones under discussion. As you can see, the ball is buff coloured and the tracer red.
On balance, I think you may be right that the .303 packet is coloured that way to indicate Red Label, no matter how confusing it may be.
Regards
TonyE
Attachments
peashooter
BOCN Supporter
How much would I expect to pay for a complete box of the red label air service rounds like the first box in this thread ?
thanks
Rich.
thanks
Rich.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
I am not sure what these would go for Rich, but there were plenty around at one time. I think quite a few though were inerted for sale at militaria shows.
Sorry Roger, I missed your post about Purple and Green labels.
I have never seen a purple label, but I have a round of the ammo. It has the blackened primer, the bullet set back about 0.1 inches and no neck crimps. I have neither seen or own a Green label either, although I have a couple of nice early RFC labels.
Cheers
TonyE
Sorry Roger, I missed your post about Purple and Green labels.
I have never seen a purple label, but I have a round of the ammo. It has the blackened primer, the bullet set back about 0.1 inches and no neck crimps. I have neither seen or own a Green label either, although I have a couple of nice early RFC labels.
Cheers
TonyE