Largest Tungsten rounds by nationality, used during in combat during WW2

[RichardB]

Largest Tungsten rounds by nationality, used during combat in WW2

All,

Its crossed my mind that I've never seen an 8,8cm Pzgr.40 either in the flesh or in photos, yet we know they were designed and manufactured. Which got me thinking....What were the largest APCR, APCNR, APDS projectiles manufactured and used in combat during WW2 by each nationality and does anyone have any photos or examples to show.

Germany - 8,8cm Pzgr.40 - With material scarcity and the performance of the 88's there was barely any need for Hartkern rounds of this size, (Perhaps the front of an IS2/3 might warrant it) Has anyone seen one or own one, also, was there ever a 10,5cm designed or used or even 12,8cm designed or used?
Russia - 85mm BR-365P - Clearly the Allies did warrant higher performance rounds for use against some of the late war AFVs Germany were employing, but was a 100mm BR-412P (?) or even 122mm BR-471P ever used. Again do we have photos or examples.
UK - 17PR APDS - I am not aware of any 20PR or 3.7in used or designed during WW2 (clearly there was a 20PR APDS after the war)
USA - 90mm HVAP (T44/M304/M318) - I don't believe a 105mm was ever trialled during the war, and certainly not used in combat, but happy to be corrected.
France - 37mm Mle35/37 APCR - was there ever a 47mm or 75mm? Clearly their involvement in ww2 prevented designs beyond 1940
Other nationalities -Japan, Italy, Hungary, Czech, Polish, Sweden, Canada, Australian - Did they employ any Tungsten rounds at all?
I appreciate many of these are rare rounds, so may be a text only thread, but im hoping there should be some interesting responses
Rich

 

[AE501]

Here are some 8.8cm cartridges.

 

[SG500]

Rich, didn't some of the Röchling shells have tungsten cores? I could be completely wrong but seem to remember reading it somewhere.

Dave.

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/3968-Rochling-21cm?highlight=arrow+shell

 

[AE501]

I Remember reading somewhere that they were used in the attack on Sevastopol, but Hitler forbade their use any more because he did not have access to sufficient Tungsten to make them a viable proposition and he did not want the technology to fall into Allied hands.

 

[Przezdzieblo]

There were some 105 mm HVAP projectiles tested in USA in Summer 1945, before formal end of WWII. Then there comes US 120 and 155 mm HVAPs and UK 20 and 32 pdr APDSs - but after the end of hostilities.

 

[RichardB]

Dave, thanks for that, I never realised the Röchling shells had Tungsten cores, but I guess it makes sense if they want significant bunker penetration. Does that also apply to the Röchling rounds used in the PaKs?

Rich, didn't some of the Röchling shells have tungsten cores? I could be completely wrong but seem to remember reading it somewhere

AE501 - I'm sure I've read somewhere that Hitler forbade the use of Tungsten in weapons at some point during 1943, so that it could be used in manufacturing instead. Given your comment about Sevastopol it sounds like they were thinking about banning Tungsten usage in weapons in 1942, which would add weight (no pun intended) to the lack of 88mm Pzgr40s.

I Remember reading somewhere that they were used in the attack on Sevastopol, but Hitler forbade their use any more because he did not have access to sufficient Tungsten to make them a viable proposition and he did not want the technology to fall into Allied hands.

Przezdzieblo - Thats interesting re the 105mm HVAP. I bit of research suggests that some of the 105mm T5/T8 anti-tank guns were sent to ETO before the end of WWII (although I can't find what ammunition was supplied), and subsequently put into the post war T28,T29,T30 development tanks and of course M46 Patton. -- Do you have any pictures/drawings of the 105mm HVAP?

Re the 32PDR APDS, I wasn't aware one existed, but I guess it makes sense.

There were some 105 mm HVAP projectiles tested in USA in Summer 1945, before formal end of WWII. Then there comes US 120 and 155 mm HVAPs and UK 20 and 32 pdr APDSs - but after the end of hostilities.

All -Thanks for your input

I did find information on the Russian 100mm BR-412P in another (game) forum, so possible this is something else, but the pictures look proof enough. Does anyone have any Drawings or other photos or information on the Russian 100mm Arrowhead?



Rich

 

[APFSDST]

Hungary didn't have own tungsten core AP ammo at the WW2.
At 1943 Hungary started manufacture the - Hungarian developed - 40mm 43M "Magvas gránát" (cored shell) in 40x310mm (Bofors) caliber, but it had just hard metal core and not tungsten core.

 

[Przezdzieblo]

Rich,

here is a picture:
click
and here you will find a link to the Tanknet forum where it was posted. The orginal source is, AFAIR, some report from DTIC on aerodynamic data of various projectiles. It looks like T29 HVAP line followed the layout of smaller 76 and 90 mm HVAPs (T4 and T30 respectively), at least externally.
There was aso HVAP for 155 mm gun, 20 pounds of WC, designated as T35. But I am not sure if it was designed before the end of WWII.

 

[M8owner]

One of my Polish contacts says he knows of a small cache of 88mm Pzgr 40's, and he may be able to get me one. We shall see.

 

[whelm]

There were some 105 mm HVAP projectiles tested in USA in Summer 1945, before formal end of WWII. Then there comes US 120 and 155 mm HVAPs and UK 20 and 32 pdr APDSs - but after the end of hostilities.

1943 they started work on the T29 series of HVAP shells I believe. This was for the T4 105mm AA gun. when they started work on the T5 105mm model for tank use it was designed to fire all of the T4's rounds including the T29 rounds.

T29 26 lb 8 lb core 3850 ft/sec* M2 powder
T29E1 27.6 lb 10 lb core
T29E2 ? 12 lb core
T29E3 24.6 10-12 lb core 3720 ft/sec* estimated, M1 powder T9 propellant
T29E4 24.6 lb 10 lb core 4200 ft/sec* estimated T12 propellant


Unsure if models went any higher then this. T5 ammo program was folded into the T140 gun project along with the T29 type round development stopped around 1951 or 1952 due to performance at range being equal to the T182 APC round against highly sloped targets. I have actually never seen a decent photo of one, there's an image in Hunnicutt's heavy tank firepower but it's not the best.