Long 77cm with dopp.Z fuse?

[pithelmet]

Hi all

Im about to have a go at posting a few pics for the first time, so bear with me and let me know if they are to big or small etc.

I have had this shell in my collection for a few years now. Its unusual in that it appears to be a long pattern 77cm field gun shell fitted with a dopp.Z.92/15 fuse.

I picked this up at a flea market in Albert on the Somme (it is fully inert) At first I thought it was a put together from the depths of someones imagination, but last summer whilst field walking, I came across a live version of this same shell. Sadly I didn`t have my camera with me at the time so no photographic record, but it was for certain the same type, length and fuse etc.

I can find no ref. in any of my books and material that identifies this shell or what it contained. HE, Gas or Shrapnel. Im taking a shrewd guess at gas, but its really just a guess.

Here are the pics. Its in relic form obviously, but I intend to restore this one to display eventually against a relic. Those that read my introduction will know this is what I like to do.

So my questions are.. What did it contain? does anybody have any info on this shell fuse combo? and most important..does any body have any info on colour and stencils etc that the shell would have been painted???

As a side note, after going through my various bags of spent fuses picked up over the years, I have come across another dopp Z fuse that seems to have the same adaptor plate attached, and it does fit right into the long pattern shell.

I have included a pic of a restored french 75 HE next to a couple of relic shells so you get the idea of how I display them.

The pics.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1551/img1901fw.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img84/1465/img1899w.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4851/img1900ym.jpg

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1805/img1902zs.jpg


Any info will be greatly appreciated as I can find nothing regarding colour, content or stencils regarding this shell.

Just to finish off I thought I would link this last pic. Hows about this for an annual harvest!? And who is crazy enough to remove all those driving bands!!?? I can`t believe copper is worth that much. Still a common site during the deep plowing in France, but this pile were sitting by the side of the road in 32 C in mid summer!!! I didn`t linger long !!

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8800/img1882od.jpg

Andy

 

[ulaire]

Really interesting piece you've got there. I've never seen this combination. Too bad you don't have a picture of the one coming out of the ground like that, but I'll take your word for it.
Just like you, I have no documentation of this shell mentioned with that fuse, but most sources I have, do mention the K.Z.11, which is also a time/percussion fuse.

The fact that you mentioned having this fuse with a small adaptor ring made me think. The 10cm shrapnel model 1896 also has such a small ring and is usually fitted with a Dopp.92. Luckily I have both these in my collection, so i tried to see if this combination fits, and it pretty much does. I couldn't really screw it in, and I don't want to force it, but with some effort I guess this would work. Here's a picture of the experiment.

 

[peteblight]

I have a reference to a Dopp.Z. 96 n/A fuze being fitted to the 7.7cm F. Schr. 96 projectile. But not the Dopp.Z. 92/15.

Cheers

Pete

 

[pithelmet]

Thanks for the replies. I know that the Dopp.z.96. and the Dopp.Z.92/15 share the same thread and have the same diameter, but I can`t even find a ref to the D.Z.96 being fitted. Any chance of seeing the ref Pete? I suppose they are not a million miles away from each other. Looking at Ulaire`s pic and experiment it seems likely that the adaptor ring for the 10cm shrapnel also fitted the long 77? Can anybody confirm this.
Does anybody have an idea of colour and stencils for the shell..is it reasonable to assume with a time delay it was gas or shrapnel filled?
I must go back and see if the shell I found is still lying in the hedge. Perhaps it was a local variation used for a short time? The shell in the field is also on the Somme.

Thanks

Andy

Edit!! Sorry misread that!! The D.Z.96 is the commonly found fuse..the zinc alloy one that always falls apart in the ground..it does not share the same thread type as the DZ.92. The D.Z.92.n/a and the DZ.92/15 share the same thread. I should read and inwardly digest before typing!! Having said that I dont have a ref of the D.Z.96 being fitted to the long shell so would be interested in seeing it.

Andy

 

[silent knight]

I don't think that you can find a Dopp. Z. 92 on a 7,7 cm l.F.K. Gr. because this fuze has no exploder.
For H.E. or gas shell you must had an exploder like the Zdlg 92.
In the 7,7 cm l.F.K. Gr. you don't have enough threading to have both fuze and exploder.

 

[MINENAZ16]

Hello SlientKnight,

I think you wanted to write "DoppZ92" instead of "DoppZ15"

This shell is certainly not original.

Best Regards

 

[silent knight]

You're right MINENAZ16, I made the correction

Thank you

 

[pithelmet]

Silent Knight..you are correct..there is no exploder on a D.Z.92/15 I hadn`t even thought about that. I am waiting for confirmation from Pete with ref to the D.Z.96 N/A. This also has no exploder. This shell could not have functioned as a gas or he shell, the option of shrapnel still exists perhaps smoke? I really don`t know :/

This shell is certainly not original.

Minenaz16 This was my belief when I aquired the shell some years ago, however I have since seen a live version of the shell in the fields near Miramont on the Somme, so I have changed my feelings..which is why I made the post. I have always taken note of shells lying in the fields and after 20 odd years of field walking I know I was not mistaken in what I saw.
I have no ref. with the long 77 being fitted with either the D.Z.92/15 or the D.Z.96 N/A., but it seems logical that it could function as a shrapnel..though not in any of my books!!
I did however see exactly the same shell/fuse combination lying in a field, so they did exist.
I have no idea if the one that I have is original or put together (probably put together at a guess though) The one lying in a hedge near Miramont certainly was. It is as much a mystery to me.

Andy

 

[peteblight]

Here's a picture of the German 7.7cm F. Schr. 96 projectile fitted with a Dopp.Z. 96 n/A fuze.
It was recovered in Belgium.

Cheers

Pete

 

[pithelmet]

Ahh..I think I didnt read you properly again Pete. As you say this is the F.Schr. 96. The shell I am writing about is the L.F.K.Gr which is a much straighter and longer body. I would normally expect to see the long 77 with any of the zinc/alloy fuses L.K.Z.11 (also in brass and brass and steel) L.K.Z.16 etc etc or the pointy gas fuse (whose name I can`t remember E.K. something?) When I read your reply I thought you were saying you had a ref. to the long 77 (L.F.K.Gr) with a Dopp 96 fuse.
I am being told that the shell I have posted dose not exist, and until last summer I would have agreed. The only reason for my post was to see if anybody had a ref to this type of shell as I have never seen or encountered this before. I have no written refs or anything to go on other than the rusty shell I have and the rusty shell I saw.
I do know that the shell I found in the field was a long 77 with a D.Z.92/15 fuse fitted in a very small, thin adaptor ring. It wasnt a 10 cm..it wasnt an 1896 or any of the derivatives I am familiar with. The long 77 is a fairly easily recognisable projectile and this is what I saw.
I would probably have paid it no attention at all if I hadnt spotted the D.Z.92/15 fuse, which is also very readily recognizable. I hope the shell is still where I left it next month when I return to France..sometimes they are sometimes they are not, but for me..I know what I was looking at...

Andy

 

[Alpini]

ulaire is right, the small adapter ring is from a "10 cm Schrapnell 96". And also Minenaz16 & silent knight are right, there is no chance that a Dopp.Z.96 was originally fitted on a 7,7 cm shell. It has the wrong thread, is much to heavy, is missing a detonator, has a wrong burning time and also the ammunition manuals for the 7,7 cm guns say different things - you see nothing fits. The smallest caliber for Dopp.Z.92's are 9 cm shells.

How would you know if the shell you found was life (of course I not want that you trying to find it out )? All the needed pieces were lying to thousands on the battlefields and there were thousands of people 4 years on the battlefields which could have put these parts together. You will need an x-ray of the shell showing that it has a special adapter to fit a Zndladung 92 detonator inside to have a proof.

 

[pithelmet]

Well..now I suppose that is always possible, but if the shell was fitted together it was a long long time ago. I`m quite sure the shell I found was properly screwed together and sealed tight.
Like you I can think of no logical reason for this combo and give any number of reasons for it not being possible or used.It is not in any of my ref. material and in 20 plus years of field walking I have never seen another. I placed this post for that reason.
I always assumed the shell I picked up from Albert was a put together, until I came across the live one. I only bought it because I had no example of the long 77 and (at the time) I had no example of the D.Z.92
As you rightly say, there is no way of telling if the one I found actually contained anything without an xray. I can say it was sealed and has been for a very long time. It was certainly not an empty shell casing with a spent fuse pushed in the top and in my opinion the adaptor ring and fuse were firmly screwed in place.
The shell is in a relatively remote place, so I doubt very much that it will be removed by any officials. However as you rightly say..the thousands of local collectors and foriegn visitors that walk there may be a different matter.
I suppose there is an above average chance that it may still remain where I left it. I will be over in France sometime next month or feb at the latest and intend to go hunting for it with my camera. I know the rough area if its there I should be able to find it.
Until then..you will just have to accept that my eye sight is better than my maths It was a long 77 with a D.Z.92/15 fuse. That is what I saw.

Andy