Mills grenade

[fashinmick]

hi what price would you except for a Inert Mills Hand Grenade in very good condition and complete. With the filler screw has Allen key slot and the base plug is numbered 44.The striker and spring are working


cheers mitch

 

[Darren]

hi what price would you except for a Inert Mills Hand Grenade in very good condition and complete. With the filler screw has Allen key slot and the base plug is numbered 44.The striker and spring are working


cheers mitch

Hi Mitch,

Prices can vary a lot, it all depends on what type of mills grenade it is and condition etc.

You would need to post more details and photos for an accurate estimation.

Darren

 

[Millsman]

That is an Isreali copy of the Mills 36. Made by Isreali secret factories to use against the British. They often have copy levers and strikers (I've never seen an original lever). The baseplug, centrepiece and filler screws do not fit Mills grenades. Expect to pay 35 for a good one, less for one in poor condition. They seem to average about 28.

John

 

[fashinmick]

mills

hi this the only info i can get right now but There is a 5 pointed star on the front of the grenade, but no other markings


cheers

 

[Millsman]

Yes it's an Isreali. Not a bad one either. Many I've seen have been painted to look like Mills 36's. I've never seen one with the star on it before. I'd guess that was a late one, perhaps 1960's. All have 44 on the base plug.

John

 

[dano1917]

The Israeli versions always seem to have that tell-tale elongation to the body right at the base. I have seen British Mills with the elongated base, but never seen the Israeli version without it. that's my nickels worth...Dano

 

[pointblank0]

Yes it's an Isreali. Not a bad one either. Many I've seen have been painted to look like Mills 36's. I've never seen one with the star on it before. I'd guess that was a late one, perhaps 1960's. All have 44 on the base plug.

John

I have one that was painted up (badly) to look british. I removed the paint and it was an Israeli practice grenade, white with yellow stripe

 

[fashinmick]

mills

hi thanks for that John the guy who was offering it for 70.
Do you happen to know where i could get a british mills?


cheers mitch

 

[gothica7]

Hi bud.
the lever, striker spring, ringpull and pin and all Israeli base plugs have the No 44 which i reccon is 1983 in our dating, and are all minters are all repro jobbies i reccon the rest is not worth much more than a fiver. The striker wont have any of the points on it to set off the .22 rimfire on the det anvil.
Try Specialistauctions.com, there are usually a few on there but dont pay by paypal as if you have an a/c they will close it for you if they find out as they think they are above the law.

Andy

 

[fashinmick]

mills

hi thanks for that andy will have a look

 

[Millsman]

Andy

The Isreali Mills were produced from the late 40's through to the early 60's. All genuine plugs ar emarked 44 which was the first year of production. They were made to be thrown at the British. In the 60's imports of French and US Grenades made them redundant. The flat headed strikers indicate they were training grenades. I obtained one that was still full of desert sand. I have also recently obtained what I believe to be a genuine 'live' Isreali striker which does have single bar on it running from centre to one edge.

John

 

[gothica7]

Hi John,

i will just have to agree to differ with you re the Israeli dating until you can give me some documentation that confirms what you say.
All the parts other than the gren and det tube are always brand new looking and why would the Israelis use western dating?

Andy

 

[Millsman]

Andy

The Isrealis used western dating because at the time they were made most of the people making them were recent immigrants from Europe. Why on earth would the IDF, one of the most modern forces on the planet be making Mills bombs in the 1980's??? These Mills bombs were made in secret by terrorist organisations like the Ergun. They had a series of literally underground factories making simple weapons such as copies of sten guns, mortars, Mills Bombs and a wide range of ammunition. The Mills Factory was at a place called Tol Mond.

The Mills Bombs were often used as an assination tool and I have a press cutting from 1948 where a young Isreali fighter was arrested tried and executed for trying to kill a local British Army commander with a 'Mills Bomb'. They only stopped producing their home made simple weapons when they were able to obtain regular supplies from France and the US in the late 50's and 60's. None of these Isreali Mills will date later than that.

Regarding the parts. My best example Isreali 44 base plug is as worn and weathered as any British 1940's base plug. I have a couple of centre pieces and they are all good condition, but they were actually made very well. Also the condition is related to the dry hot conditions they were stored in. Most of the Isreali Mills have modern levers. This was because a large batch were imported and they were missing the levers, which had to be made. I believe the person who did it is a current forum member and occassionally posts. One Isreali Mills I bought last year was still filled with red desert sand, where it had been used for training.

Perhaps the question I should ask you is 'prove to me that they were made in the 1980's'?

Look at any book about the IDF with photos going back to the 1960's and you will never see a Mills Bomb. US grenades are there, not these 'Mills copies'. They were the product of terrorism and the early struggle for freedom for Isreal. Any later use was just as a cheap and handy practice grenade for throwing.

John

 

[gothica7]

Hi John,

i have never seen a worn Israeli Mills base plug ime afraid, Did see a box of 50 or more at Beltring a few years ago, the grens were all battered to hell but the base plugs were all mint, no sign of damage at all and that alone was suprising as all the fillers were well damaged.
Also, has anyone seen or have in their possession a live[deactivated of course] Israeli Mills? Some must have survived?
I am not saying that the Israelis didnt make Mills bombs, just not in 1944. Did they make them at a later date too? I would have thought that they did but there dosnt seem to be any base plugs showing this.
Now ime sure you realise that a dated base plug dosnt always prove the date of a grenade, maybe they were all made at a later date and someone thought it would be a good selling point to stick on a 44? All the ones i have seen dont show any aging or wear as do all my British Drill plugs, all of them. I would also have thought the centre tubes would also look a bit worse for wear if they were full of sand and been chucked around for years but they dont.
I am not trying to prove anything here other than use my observations on what look like repro parts, the bodies and fillers seem original but little else.

Andy

 

[Millsman]

Andy

All you have there is guesswork. I have researched the origin of the Isreali Mills. I have more info than I have put on this website and I have spoken face to face with the guy who imported most of them into this country.

Most of the Isreali Mills are battered because they were used for throwing practice. The centrepieces often look polished because of the sand that rattled around outside them.

Yes someone has been making repro baseplugs for them but they are not like the real ones. Beltring is full of dodgy stuff so I wouldn't base anything on that observation.

Yes they did make them from 1944 though to the 60's after that they dropped out of 'live' use and were relegated to throwing practice. Their origin was in anti British terrorism. Believe me I've done the research.

John

 

[Snufkin]

Israeli No.36 copy

Interesting the way this thread has evolved from an initial question regarding the price of a grenade. Perhaps there is no other ordnance subject that is so steeped in mythology and folklore, and of such limited interest to a tiny minority of British and Commonwealth correspondents, than the Mills bomb and its later variants.

John, when you say I have researched the origin of the Isreali (sic) Mills Believe me I've done the research, its probably fair that the interested audience should be presented with some definitive written or clear photographic evidence.

I do not know the history of these Israeli made copies of the No.36, but Im happy to take a look at the object and question what the physical evidence suggests.

The original base plug is a well-made zinc/mazak casting, often with the letter A in a circle, located in one of the key indents. Likewise the centrepiece is a professionally made zinc die casting, again with the letter A circle. I have also seen a few filler screws with the A, and the filler is a good casting with a hex-key socket. See attached images.

British No.36 zinc/mazak components have Z in a circle to denote the material. Interesting the Ivrit word for zinc is Avats, so circumstantial evidence might suggest that the A in a circle also denotes the material used, i.e. zinc. A state industry might stamp such information, but whether an organisation such as the Stern Gang or Ergun would do so is questionable. Equally if the 44 represents a date, would a terrorist organisation really be bothered or motivated to do that? The tooling up to make a diecast centrepiece is a significant effort, well within the means of a state manufacturer, but in an underground workshop? And why the more complex hex-key rather than a simple flat blade slot in the filler screw?

After the creation of the Israeli state, Britain (amongst others such as the US and France) was a major equipment provider, supplying everything from small arms to Centurion tanks. In the early 1970s Britain ceased production of the No.36 grenade for its own forces, but it continued in service around the world. The recent influx onto the market of white painted, yellow banded Israeli examples are often found weighted with sand and broken lugs, suggesting throwing practice items. This in turn suggests that live versions were a service store with the IDF.

Stencilling in Hebrew around the base of the grenade gives credence to the digits 44 on the base plug being a Hebrew date. As Andy has suggested, Hebrew year 5744 is equivalent to the western year 1983, see:

http://www.hebcal.com/converter/?gd=12&gm=9&gy=1983&g2h=Compute+Hebrew+Date&hd=3&hm=Elul&hy=5743

Therefore a possibility is that the early 1980s would correspond to supply from Britain having long dried up, and so the manufacture of copies by Israel to maintain availability, prior to adoption of other grenade stores. The implication is that what we are now seeing on the surplus market are these 1980s items, minus original levers and strikers.

Im totally open to evidence from any quarter that shows otherwise, but Im not convinced these Israeli No.36s are circa 1940s.




Tom.

 

[Millsman]

Tom

My research has shown that in the late 40's the Isrealis rebellion against British occupation gave rise to quite literally underground factories producing copies of mainly British weapons - mainly by Ergun. The Mills was first produced at that time. This is a fact not speculation.

Also consider the body design. This is not a straight copy of the Mills 36. I've seen the shape elsewhere and far earlier, indicating that moulds may have come from outside of Isreal.

If the Isrealis produced these grenades in the 1980's it would have been a retrograde step and I think the 44 on the baseplug is a red herring for you and Andy, by believing that the script is hebrew. It could be a design number or a date. Why are no other numbers present on Isreali plugs if they were produced for years in the 70-80's as you surmise?

By the 1980's the US was the dominant supplier to Isreal followed by France. Why would Isreal produce a 70 year old design that everyone knows was very labour intensive to produce. It would have been far cheaper to buy modern from the US than make Mills copies.

I can also tell you that Isreal did export these grenades to a small mediterranean state as examples of the base plugs and fillers have been found on grenade ranges side by side with 1940'-1950's Mills plugs.

Everything I have learnt about these grenades indicates early post war rather than 1980's / 90's.

John

 

[Snufkin]

"Fact not speculation."

John,

I don't mind whether these Isreali (sic) grenades were made in 1984, 1944 or 1914. I'm open to any facts that may be presented, as long as supported by evidence. Just present for once some written, photographic, or other documentary, evidence and I'll be happy.



Tom.

 

[pointblank0]

How annoying! I was happy with the 80s dates but these threads get me thinking. I'm gonna have to dig mine out of the garage and strip it down and start studying a bit

 

[Millsman]

Tom

A public forum is not the best place for this at present. You may have to wait until I publish it in paper form, which is being urged on me at present. I've done enough work on it to say that what I have said in this thread is factual.

John