Mills plug No5

[Red line]

Hi,
Could you help me to identify the manufacturer of the Mills Base Plug No. 5 MKI on the pictures please?
Thank in advance
the first:
J.P 1-17 or J.R 1-17 (I think the logo of the War department between the J.R and 1-17 ??)


Second:
G.P & S 7/16 and J.& J.B 11/16

 

[millsbomber]

Wow You have some rare plugs there, the first one i have seen before but the other 2 never before, the one on the right looks like a miss stamp with the date and the manufacturer is not known to me as of the other 2 makers, Sorry,,,,,,,,,, Dave

 

[Bonnex]

Possible contenders are GP&S - G Payne & Sons, Birmingham
J&JB - J & J Bent, Birmingham
JP - Joseph Parkes, Willenhall (But usually JP&S or JP&SW) 1-17 is quite late for this style of plug

I'm sure Tom or Tim will add/amend when they get a chance.

 

[millsbomber]

The top one is J.R i think Norman as my record show a Crows foot in another position,,,,,, Dave

 

[Snufkin]

Possible contenders are GP&S - G Payne & Sons, Birmingham
J&JB - J & J Bent, Birmingham
JP - Joseph Parkes, Willenhall (But usually JP&S or JP&SW) 1-17 is quite late for this style of plug

I'm sure Tom or Tim will add/amend when they get a chance.

Definitely G. Payne & Sons and J. & J. Bent for the latter. As for the J.R, I'd wager it was most probably a genuine unstamped plug (bar the pheon/arrow) that has had the markings faked. My reasons are:


The initials do not correspond to any known maker (that I can find);
The font is not convincing;
The juxtaposition of the maker's initials and date are at variance with what is usually seen (though in itself this is not a show stopper);
The grenade type is invariably stamped as No.5 MkI or No.5 I. I have never seen the format No.5 MI used (although I'm open to evidence to the contrary);
Unlike in current times, the WWI generation were sticklers for correct punctuation and grammar. Either there should be two full stops, as in J.R. for the initials, or none, JR. The stamp J.R is complete anathema to the WWI stamp makers.

Therefore, I believe, a fake stamping.

Attached is a photo of a very obvious fake, Noakes Bros(?), of which several have been produced. Here the complete base plug has been recently manufactured, so not relying on finding genuine unmarked examples to doctor. Also another fake base plug (for completeness even sold with a fake No.5 body on the WD Militaria website recently).



Tom.

 

[millsbomber]

I was like you at first Tom with the J.R marked one but after referring to the blue folder i showed you on your recent visit, it was there with the crows foot at a different position, i just need to get out to Belgium to confirm so many things with the another collector...... Dave

 

[Red line]

Hi to all,
Thank you for your response,
From Snufkin:
"As for the J.R, I'd wager it was most probably a genuine unstamped plug (bar the pheon/arrow) that has had the markings faked."
This is what "Paul the grenade" told me and all the comments you write.
But the Mills plug No. 5 JR-17 or JP.17 is not a fake, I have found in the earth with other Mills plug still attached to the grenades. When I cleaned the plug Mills, I found this special marking....unbelievable but true. that's why I ask the help of specialist to identify the marking. I also noticed between JR-1 or JP-1 there is the marking of the War Department, but not hit hard enough (I think?)
Thank
Red line

 

[Yodamaster]

Hi to all,
Thank you for your response,
From Snufkin:
"As for the J.R, I'd wager it was most probably a genuine unstamped plug (bar the pheon/arrow) that has had the markings faked."
This is what "Paul the grenade" told me and all the comments you write.
But the Mills plug No. 5 JR-17 or JP.17 is not a fake, I have found in the earth with other Mills plug still attached to the grenades. When I cleaned the plug Mills, I found this special marking....unbelievable but true. that's why I ask the help of specialist to identify the marking. I also noticed between JR-1 or JP-1 there is the marking of the War Department, but not hit hard enough (I think?)
Thank
Red line

I agree with Red line, I think too that the manufactor's code is J.(point) P.(point). Bad stamped arrow make a link between the P and the point and make something like an R.

Yoda

 

[SG500]

I know nothing about base plugs and the only ones I've seen are on the internet and at arms fairs, all seem to be priced at less than 20 with most less than 10.
Why would anyone bother making a fake one? Or do these super rare ones make serious money?
Just thinking out loud here, thoughts anyone?
Dave.

 

[Red line]

The price is another subject and it is not my question but you are right, why make a fake? It is true that as Mills plug like this is very rare because it is not a fake, I tell you why in my second reply
And the question remains always, who is the manufacturer and it is J.R or J.P?
Red Line

 

[millsbomber]

In my experience and looking at other collections all over Europe and knowing of another example, the J.R is not a fake.
The fake plugs were produced to put on grenades to sell dig ups, i once met the guy who made the fake ones, his prices were fair for a complete grenade with a fake plug but once thy were passed onto other dealers its the same story every where, he also sold genuine plugs, it was strange looking at his stall with nice mills with fake plugs and selling the genuine plugs separately for a couple of euros,,,,,,, times gone by........ Dave

 

[TimG]

As Tom says the No. 5 M.I is at odds with normal convention. Furthermore, the No. 5 etc., is in a sans serif font, whereas the J.? is most definitely in a serif font.

TimG

P.S. Having looked at Dave's collection of No. 5 Base plugs a mix and match of fonts is not that uncommon, but seems restricted to companys stamping their whole name as opposed to those just stampimg their initials.

 

[Red line]

I can not understand, not really no, because I tell you that I found this plug attached to a Mills grenade into the ground, like any other in my collection, see pictures, I am not a dealer, so why I must make fake Mills plug????
but I know nothing of that marking J.R or J.P

 

[Snufkin]

If the evidence points to the J.R plug being genuine, then I'm more than happy to stand corrected. Red line has removed the base plug from a buried grenade he has found, so that is hard to dismiss. Added to that the notes and drawings in Dave's hands come from a reputable source.

I am not convinced that the plug is marked J.P. with the P. being distorted into an R by the stamped pheon. One contract possibility with the initials J R is James Reynolds & Co. Ltd.* However, convention would normally give something along the lines of J.R. & Co. Ld. or Reynolds, B'ham. Then there is still the MI marking which is at odds with what might be expected.

Perhaps this J.R plug is the exception that proves the rule.

*Contract No.4341/1A dated 17.2.17, for total of 36,000 Mills grenades, at rate of 2,000 per week, date of first delivery 13.10.16.



PS. Red line,

I was not suggesting that you had made a fake Mills plug, more that you had acquired a plug with a suspect marking from elsewhere. Initially I wasn't aware that you were finding buried grenades and stripping them down.





Tom.

 

[Red line]

Thank Tom for your clear and precise answer, we know a bit more now.
Generally when you found a grenade over 90 years in the ground (depending on the ground type) for the most part time, There's the Mills plug to recover, nothing else.
Red Line

 

[paul the grenade]

just a quick official reminder that discussing the dismantling of possibly live grenades is forbidden on this forum. please be sure to say the items are safe relics if mentioned in further posts.
thanks, paul.

 

[Bonnex]

Personally I prefer the term uncommon rather than rare. Most were made in large numbers.

 

[Edwardc]

I can not understand, not really no, because I tell you that I found this plug attached to a Mills grenade into the ground, like any other in my collection, see pictures, I am not a dealer, so why I must make fake Mills plug????
but I know nothing of that marking J.R or J.P

Now that is an awesome collection of Base plugs!!

 

[Red line]

Here another mystery
two differents manufacturers for the same plug :
- B.& D. (Brooks & Doxey Ltd. Junction Iron Works, Miles Platting, Manchester)
10/16
and
- JAMES CYCLE. Co. Birmingham. (The James Works, Gough Road, Greet,
Birmingham) /16
I have already had this response:
"Maybe the base plugs were manufactured at one place then sent to the assemblers who supplied all the other parts and then overstamped it with the date and their mark??"

 

[millsbomber]

If the evidence points to the J.R plug being genuine, then I'm more than happy to stand corrected. Red line has removed the base plug from a buried grenade he has found, so that is hard to dismiss. Added to that the notes and drawings in Dave's hands come from a reputable source.

I am not convinced that the plug is marked J.P. with the P. being distorted into an R by the stamped pheon. One contract possibility with the initials J R is James Reynolds & Co. Ltd.* However, convention would normally give something along the lines of J.R. & Co. Ld. or Reynolds, B'ham. Then there is still the MI marking which is at odds with what might be expected.

Perhaps this J.R plug is the exception that proves the rule.

*Contract No.4341/1A dated 17.2.17, for total of 36,000 Mills grenades, at rate of 2,000 per week, date of first delivery 13.10.16.



PS. Red line,

I was not suggesting that you had made a fake Mills plug, more that you had acquired a plug with a suspect marking from elsewhere. Initially I wasn't aware that you were finding buried grenades and stripping them down.





Tom.

I have been going through my records and have found other examples of the No5 M-1 markings thy are Lead Elmbank foundry, one with full date 1916 and another 9/16, i only have a bad example in the collection as pictures but other collectors please have a look at your examples and see what you have, the No23 M II and M III, No36 MI also used this type of font on base plugs ?,,,,,, Dave

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