No.36 mkII?

[turpin42]

Hi gents!
This arrived in the post today.
Am i right in thinking this is a no.36 mkII? Haven't come across lugs like this on the no.36.
Came here via airdropped container from britain during the war. Untouched apart from de-activation. Marking on body is CPS or similar (the first letter is unclear). The base plug is dated 1944 but the screw hole in the middle is the standard no.36 size, not the bigger as on mkII (from what i found out on the net) Stamp on lever - D.H.S.
Funny thing is the lower half of the body is bare metal. The upper half is fine with traces of the crosses. Are these rarer than the normal no.36?

All the best and merry Christmas to all!

T42

 

[gothica7]

Hi bud,

its a normal No 36 MK 1, not a MK 11. Mk 11s were all drill training grens with the 5 holes. Your maker is probably JPS, Joseph Parkes & Sons, Willenhall, Staffs, and they produced grens with the swept forward lugs.

There would have been no live 36 MK 11s in a battlefield scenario as a standard gas check would not fit and there would never be 2 types available as this would obvioulsy cause problems re standardisation. The Mk11 was purely a training aid that was produced so that the gas check would last longer as the standard thread of the MK 1 usually snapped off when used regularly in the Burns cup.

DHS as a maker is listed but dont know who it is, maybe another forum member may know.

As to why the bottom half is bare metal, who can tell, perhaps it has been used as a training aid and its where its been handled more. However, a nice gren, be proud to own it.

And a Merry Christmas to you too.

Andy

 

[turpin42]

Good stuff Andy!
Thanks for the info. Great to know what it is. The lugs threw me there.

Thanks again
T42

 

[Snufkin]

The body is most likely by JPS, Josiah Parkes & Son. The flared lugs are a feature of many 36 bodies produced by this manufacturer, and are found on their 36 bodies from both WWI and WWII.

There is a myth that these bodies were training bodies, in that the lugs are reinforced compared with the more commonly found lugs. The reality is that the small amount of additional cast iron flaring on each lug adds no effective mechanical strength.

Photos show two JPS bodies with flared lugs, the one on the left a WWII example, the one on the right a 1918 vintage, used in WWII as a training item - the five holes were drilled post 1937.



Tom.

 

[gothica7]

Sorry, meant Josiah,

Tom, the colour of the WW1 JPS, is that green or blue? Certainly looks unusual for a drill gren? Never seen one like that before.

Andy

 

[Snufkin]

Sorry, meant Josiah,

Tom, the colour of the WW1 JPS, is that green or blue? Certainly looks unusual for a drill gren? Never seen one like that before.

Andy

Andy, the purest green. One of my first Mills bombs, from nearly 30 years back. It came with the base plug, but that is no guarantee of provenance. However, it has a genuine WWI 36 aluminium centre piece which I've never been able to remove - so I am happy that the whole item is WW1 vintage, ultimately press ganged into service as a training grenade in WWII.


Tom.

 

[gothica7]

Here is a JPS No 36 M Mk 11 from WW2 with its corresponding M Mk 11 base plug made by Singer dated 1941.

Andy

 

[turpin42]

Thanks again

Facinating stuff this!
Many thanks for the help snufkin.
Here's another pic... i can see the JPS clearer in the pic than on the grenade :tinysmile_hmm_t:

T42

 

[gothica7]

Nice couple of Grens Tom,

and to see the difference between WW1 and WW2 No 36 centre tubes is great too so thanks for that.

Andy

 

[Millsman]

The body is most likely by JPS, Josiah Parkes & Son. The flared lugs are a feature of many 36 bodies produced by this manufacturer, and are found on their 36 bodies from both WWI and WWII.

There is a myth that these bodies were training bodies, in that the lugs are reinforced compared with the more commonly found lugs. The reality is that the small amount of additional cast iron flaring on each lug adds no effective mechanical strength.

Photos show two JPS bodies with flared lugs, the one on the left a WWII example, the one on the right a 1918 vintage, used in WWII as a training item - the five holes were drilled post 1937.



Tom.

Tom

Is there any official spec for these extended shoulders? I'd always associated them with MkIIs (if they had the right plug). JPS seems to be the only maker for them. I have one that was brought back unused from Market Garden / Arnham.

John

 

[Snufkin]

Tom

Is there any official spec for these extended shoulders? I'd always associated them with MkIIs (if they had the right plug). JPS seems to be the only maker for them. I have one that was brought back unused from Market Garden / Arnham.

John

John,

I don't know of any specification for the casting with fluted lugs. Just like some 36 bodies from PSC (Parkinson Stove Co) don't have an uppermost segmentation groove, I take the fluted lugs as merely a casting quirk from JPS. See attached for PSC body compared with "standard" JPS.

The definition of the MkII is given by WOLC 25114 (2 JAN 1922), see Landers p114. "The mark II practice grenade is a stronger pattern than the Mark I grenade (LC20472) being strengthened by boring a larger screw recess in the base plug and fitting a larger and slightly different screwed stud to the gascheck". No mention of lugs...

Chronologically speaking, WWI bodies with fluted lugs pre-date WOLC 25114 by four to five years, which would appear to be good evidence that such attributes have nothing to do with a MkII...



Tom.

 

[Millsman]

Thanks Tom. I'm trying to remember where I read that the MkII had strengthened shoulders and base plug to stand 'repeated' firing in training. If I can remember I'll post it (It may have been a website). I think the key fact that supports you is that only JPS grenades seem to have these different lugs.

John

 

[Snufkin]

Thanks Tom. I'm trying to remember where I read that the MkII had strengthened shoulders and base plug to stand 'repeated' firing in training. If I can remember I'll post it (It may have been a website). I think the key fact that supports you is that only JPS grenades seem to have these different lugs.

John

John,

It is indeed on a website, so there's no need to go to the trouble of finding it. The key evidence is actually the chronology and the documentation, and that any mechanical engineer versed in the art will affirm that the fluting on the shoulders is more ornamental than functional.



Tom.

 

[gothica7]

I believe a company called THR also made bodies with the swept forward lugs according to the Millsbomb website.

Andy

 

[pointblank0]

So then, can you get a MK2 that doesn't have swept forward lugs? Reason I ask is that I have a practice, what I thought was a Mk1 with a MK2 baseplug fitted. I can't think of the maker off the top of my head and I'm at work at the mo.

 

[Snufkin]

I believe a company called THR also made bodies with the swept forward lugs according to the Millsbomb website.

Andy

Thanks for that, Andy.

John, to provide some empirical evidence, the attached shows two practice Israeli 36. The lugs have been well broken - it is doubtful that any amount of fluting off the rear of the lugs would have made the slightest difference to the fracturing.



Tom.

 

[Snufkin]

So then, can you get a MK2 that doesn't have swept forward lugs? Reason I ask is that I have a practice, what I thought was a Mk1 with a MK2 baseplug fitted. I can't think of the maker off the top of my head and I'm at work at the mo.

The base plug with the larger threaded hole makes a grenade a Mark II, simple as that. It can have swept lugs if it's one of the JPS (or THR) bodies, or more often than not it will have the standard lugs, such as by Kenrick, BBC, JHW, IBR, et al. - or even JPS.

A Mk II can only be a practice grenade, as Andy pointed out in an earlier post. A good summary of this is in Darryl Lynn's "The Grenade Recognition Manual, Vol. 2".



Tom.

 

[pointblank0]

Superb. That sorts that one out then. I am now the proud owner of two Mk2s instead of one!

 

[Millsman]

The base plug with the larger threaded hole makes a grenade a Mark II, simple as that. It can have swept lugs if it's one of the JPS (or THR) bodies, or more often than not it will have the standard lugs, such as by Kenrick, BBC, JHW, IBR, et al. - or even JPS.

A Mk II can only be a practice grenade, as Andy pointed out in an earlier post. A good summary of this is in Darryl Lynn's "The Grenade Recognition Manual, Vol. 2".



Tom.

Thanks Tom. I 'm getting my head around this now. Andy and I had a discussion about this earlier in the year and we went in circles. I'll now say Andy was right then!

John

 

[dano1917]

Mills disfunctional

Just wanted to comment that I learned volumes off this thread. I'm pretty much an idiot when it comes to the Mills. In fact on many other Mills threads I have learned that there is much more to them than the No5 and No36. I'm here to learn and I guess it is working. Thanks so much to all involved...Dano (merry Christmas if you're so inclined)