No 5 grenade lever types

[Nismosonic]

I was wondering..
anyone know the date of transition from the 1st type lever with the drilled holes for pin to the ridged flatter 2nd type? Latest I’ve personally seen confirmed for early type is 9/15 (Somme battlefield rusted solid so def original)
earliest flat I’ve seen is 2/16 With Mills Munitions plug, but that not a relic so unsure if original.

 

[king ratgre]

I was wondering..
anyone know the date of transition from the 1st type lever with the drilled holes for pin to the ridged flatter 2nd type? Latest I’ve personally seen confirmed for early type is 9/15 (Somme battlefield rusted solid so def original)
earliest flat I’ve seen is 2/16 With Mills Munitions plug, but that not a relic so unsure if original.

I have a matched pair of no 5s with slab sided levers,which I believe are correct to grenades..these are dated 1/16, I also have several belfast committee centre casts all with convex levers ,plugs dated 12/15.I am sure that flat levers were produced & used in paralell with flat type from late 15 to mid 16. I am sure others will disagree wildly but in the rush to fulfil contracts many manufacturers outsourced many (if not all) component parts without control of available contempary supply

 

[gothica7]

I have a no 5 made by Mills Munitions Ltd dated 7/15 with a slightly rounded lever with no strengthening and it looks original to the centre cast body so it looks like the change started very early into the design of the grenade, just a couple of months or so. I also have a May 1915 Mills with the slab sided lever which also includes the serial number stamped on the lever so the transition to a safer and more easily made lever was quite quick. I think Mills Munitions would have been in the forefront of any changes as William Mills designed the grenade..

 

[Millsman]

The drilled slab sided lever actually had quite a long life from April 1915 through to the summer of 1916.
The next lever was the flat lever (approx early 1916 for a few months)
Then the convex (mid 1916 to autumn 1916)
Then the downward ridge lever (autumn 1918)
Then the upward ridge lever (Late 1916)
Then the flat 23 Mk III and the 36. (1917 onwards)

The above is based upon grenades with a known provenance and grenades found on the Somme battlefields - I've seen hundreds of these relics so can match lever types to base plug dates.

However I don't think we can be that precise on the dates of introduction and withdrawal as manufacturers probably used up stocks before moving onto the next type of lever.

Andy - the number on the Mills levers is a registered design number - Mills couldn't patent a lever as they had existed for thousands of years.

 

[Nismosonic]

Thanks guys,,
this is what got me wondering..
I’ve a mills munitions “Mills patents” type base plug with a convex lever dated 3/16. Has a brass inner. And a CAV plug dated 10/16 with same convex Lever. The 3/16 is earliest of any I have with the convex, it’s mint! Came from effects of a ww1 soldier Who passed away in mid 1980’s.

 

[Millsman]

Thanks guys,,
this is what got me wondering..
I’ve a mills munitions “Mills patents” type base plug with a convex lever dated 3/16. Has a brass inner. And a CAV plug dated 10/16 with same convex Lever. The 3/16 is earliest of any I have with the convex, it’s mint! Came from effects of a ww1 soldier Who passed away in mid 1980’s.

I don't have a problem with that. Could be one of the first convex types.

 

[king ratgre]

as I said ,I have 4 belfast committee centre casts with convex levers( 12/15 ), I know of 3 others on internet ,with convex levers......I have no reason to believe any of these are wrong.......this would push the earliest issue date back further than suggested by Millsman

 

[Snufkin]

I have 4 belfast committee ... with convex levers( 12/15 ), I know of 3 others on internet ,with convex levers...

They are correctly furnished, although some Belfast-made Mills grenades were fitted with channel form levers.

The totally flat lever appeared with the ramping of mass production of the No.5 grenade in the last quarter of 1915, and is shown on the successive amended inspection drawings labelled as "Alternative lever". The convex lever was merely a slight modification (easily done in one pressing operation) of the flat lever to give it a bit of rigidity and improve its inherently poor mechanical strength.

To further strengthen the lever, the inward facing ridge was adopted the first quarter 1916, and finally the outward facing ridge the third quarter 1916. (The documentary evidence for the lever types and when they appeared exists, albeit in some less than obvious places.)

 

[Millsman]

I'm finding convex levers on Belfast Mills a little 'difficult'. The Belfast Mills were made between October to December 1915. To give Belfast Mills convex levers defies the evolution of the levers.

Mills started with the 'slab sided' lever - That was expensive to make and involved drilling holes through the body and the lever at the same time, so also labour intensive.

The flat lever came in and was the subject of some complaints about it breaking of bending if caught in webbing.

To counter this the convex lever emerged in 1916 followed by the two ridged types and finally the 23 Mk III / 36 lever.

As Snufkin states the ridge levers came in as the No.5 was starting to be used as a rifle grenade (Pre 23 Mk I) but in inspecting hundreds of grenades from the Somme battlefield I have never found one grenade dated 1915 with a convex lever. They have all been slab sided or flat. The convex lever clearly emerges in the spring of 1916 followed by the 'ridges' in the same year.

So unless the Belfast Committee had some amazing insight into the future design changes I would say all Belfast Mills should have mainly slab sided or at least a few flat levers only.

Think technical evolution.

 

[king ratgre]

The question has got to be " how many " of the hundreds of Somme battlefield relics you inspected were Belfast Committee manufactured ?

 

[Snufkin]

... in inspecting hundreds of grenades from the Somme battlefield I have never found one grenade dated 1915 with a convex lever. They have all been slab sided or flat.

Even if one had examined 1,000 field-found Mills grenades - and had had the presence of mind from the very first to inspect in detail the levers given the often high level of corrosion and accretion - it would have represented a statistically miniscule sample of 0.003% of the No. 5 grenades manufactured.* On that basis no one could seriously claim that their lack of having seen an example correlated to a proof of its lack of existence.

*35,000,000 No.5 and No.23 MkI grenades having been made.

The convex lever clearly emerges in the spring of 1916 followed by the 'ridges' in the same year.

Think technical evolution.

The convex lever was merely a slightly strengthened flat lever, the forming being a well known method of improving mechanical strength. Neither flat nor convex would have had the structural integrity of the ridged levers, and it would have been an oddity indeed if the convex lever emerged in the spring of 1916, after the introduction of the inward ridged lever of February 1916. It would have represented a retrograde design step.

Think technical evolution.

So unless the Belfast Committee had some amazing insight into the future design changes I would say all Belfast Mills should have mainly slab sided or at least a few flat levers only.

FWIW some photos of another Belfast MC No.5, albeit a rather battered nickel plated example. I took the photos at Mike Saffery's place after he had received it via a Northern Irish auction.

 

[Millsman]

The question has got to be " how many " of the hundreds of Somme battlefield relics you inspected were Belfast Committee manufactured ?

That would be unkown as most are in pitted condition and things like the letters on the shoulders would have gone. My experience with battlefield relics does however link base plug dates to lever types.

 

[Millsman]

I think there is an answer to the Belfast Committee grenades with convex levers.

a) these grenades are probably souvenirs taken by factory workers and not issued with the 250,000 for the contract. These would have probably gone straight to France where they were desperately needed at the time.

b) they may have been spare bodies left over from the initial 250,000 production run.

c) If they were made by James Mackie & Sons it would have quite easy for the workers to use convex levers from Mackies 1916 contract for No. 5 grenades, what would have had convex levers and probably early ridged levers.

We all would love things in our collections to be 'right' but objectively Mills grenades are victims of mismatched parts like few other antiques.

 

[Millsman]

Even if one had examined 1,000 field-found Mills grenades - and had had the presence of mind from the very first to inspect in detail the levers given the often high level of corrosion and accretion - it would have represented a statistically miniscule sample of 0.003% of the No. 5 grenades manufactured.* On that basis no one could seriously claim that their lack of having seen an example correlated to a proof of its lack of existence.

I'm not saying a thousand, but some hundreds. And yes, I have looked at them closely.

The key point about the grenades I have examined from the Somme battlefield is that they come out of the ground in the state they went in. They have never been taken apart or part swapped or messed with. They are what they are, and as close to first hand archaelogical evidence as damn it.

Having a house on the Somme for nearly 16 years does give you some insight.

 

[king ratgre]

I think there is an answer to the Belfast Committee grenades with convex levers.

a) these grenades are probably souvenirs taken by factory workers and not issued with the 250,000 for the contract. These would have probably gone straight to France where they were desperately needed at the time.

b) they may have been spare bodies left over from the initial 250,000 production run.

c) If they were made by James Mackie & Sons it would have quite easy for the workers to use convex levers from Mackies 1916 contract for No. 5 grenades, what would have had convex levers and probably early ridged levers.

We all would love things in our collections to be 'right' but objectively Mills grenades are victims of mismatched parts like few other antiques.

a)probably
b)may have
c) if............are all hardly compelling arguments, however I concede to not knowing conclusively to their originality either, but then the same logic applied to slab sided levers attached would be the same versus flat type.
I can only state what I have seen on known examples of this type of grenade, if it transpires that they are all post initial production match ups,does this make them as wrong as rematching them with levers they were never actually fitted with? ( if a tree falls in a forest,& nobody is around to hear it fall..does it actually make a sound ? )

 

[Snufkin]

a)probably
b)may have
c) if............are all hardly compelling arguments

That sums it up.

I can only state what I have seen on known examples of this type of grenade

And given that there are other examples furnished with December 1915 base plugs and convex levers, the most straightforward explanation is that the grenades were originally completed as such. It is also consistent with the surviving documentary evidence - drawings, minutes, correspondence.

 

[Millsman]

That sums it up.

And given that there are other examples furnished with December 1915 base plugs and convex levers, the most straightforward explanation is that the grenades were originally completed as such. It is also consistent with the surviving documentary evidence - drawings, minutes, correspondence.

Perhaps you could show some of that?

I'd also say that basing your 'theory' on a sample of three out of 250,000 is statistically worse than the figure you stated for my observations in France.

And again, this defies the facts of lever evolution. Slab sided, Flat, Convex ridged, all of which took place after the Belfast Committee contract ended.

Regarding conversion of flat levers to convex, this appear to be an idea dating from 2023 without any evidence.

All the complete Belfast grenades I have seen i.e marked body, Hand of Ulster base plug and appearing original have had slab sided levers though a friend does have a Belfast body with flat lever but no base plug.

Regarding the statement -

the most straightforward explanation is that the grenades were originally completed as such

This goes against the previous evidence and is not a fact, but an opinion. I'm sure somewhere in the National archives there must be memo to manufactures to start using a convex lever when existing stocks of flat levers are used up, we just have to find it ( and get a date).

 

[TimG]

The key point about the grenades I have examined from the Somme battlefield is that they come out of the ground in the state they went in. They have never been taken apart or part swapped or messed with. They are what they are, and as close to first hand archaelogical evidence as damn it.

Dangerous assumption - There have always been repair programmes. Post WWII there was a repair programme involving battlefield recovered ordnance. One of these certainly included 36Ms. Briefly - the grenades would be unpacked from their boxes and stripped of their component parts. The component parts would be placed in large receptacles. All items were cleaned and inspected, accepted or rejected. Bodies were, where necessary recoated etc. The grenades were then reassembled, proofed, repacked etc. Those engaged in such work were not in the slightest bit concerned with reassembling the grenades with matching (manufacturers) parts.

 

[Millsman]

Dangerous assumption - There have always been repair programmes. Post WWII there was a repair programme involving battlefield recovered ordnance. One of these certainly included 36Ms. Briefly - the grenades would be unpacked from their boxes and stripped of their component parts. The component parts would be placed in large receptacles. All items were cleaned and inspected, accepted or rejected. Bodies were, where necessary recoated etc. The grenades were then reassembled, proofed, repacked etc. Those engaged in such work were not in the slightest bit concerned with reassembling the grenades with matching (manufacturers) parts.

Was that in place late 1915 to early 1916?

 

[king ratgre]

more than 3