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No36 Grenade Base Key.

R

ron3350

Well-Known Member
I bought this key today after looking at it for a year. It seems to be a key to remove the base from a No36 grenade. It is steel with nommarkings.
I looked at the post from grenadecollector and noticed a similarity. Cost me $30 so seems worth it. It was a bit rusty but cleaned up OK.
The 2 legs fit at least half-way into the slots of the normal alloy No36 bases so I think this is a real WW2 key. Photo from grenadecollector to compare similarity. Thanks.

No36 Grenade Base Tool.jpgNo36 Grenade Navy Base Key.jpg
 
ron3350 said:
I bought this key today after looking at it for a year. It seems to be a key to remove the base from a No36 grenade. It is steel with nommarkings.
I looked at the post from grenadecollector and noticed a similarity. Cost me $30 so seems worth it. It was a bit rusty but cleaned up OK.
The 2 legs fit at least half-way into the slots of the normal alloy No36 bases so I think this is a real WW2 key. Photo from grenadecollector to compare similarity. Thanks.

View attachment 178450View attachment 178451
Click to expand...

These are being sold on ebay for up to £200 but as far as I know they are nothing to do with the Mills grenade.

From what I have seen in official documents they are Royal Navy Shell Case Primer removal tools and were first issued in the early 1900s.
 
Thanks for the quick reply. I will have to check all my UK primers to see what might fit corrctly.
It would certainly remove a mills base but is 2-3mm from fitting to meet the base. It seems I am happy and I got a bargain.
 
I thought the official key was the bent U shaped wire found on the inside lid of Mills boxes. I always wondered about this key, seems a bit of an over kill to tighten a mills base when it just needs nipping up, after all if you primed grenades and you have extra left over after training or training with drill or practice grenades with dummy dets they need to be undone or is this not the case. If a Mills needs that much force to screw up the base plug then i am sure they would had made a hex plug and used a spanner tool than put serration groves for finger tightening.
 
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Millsman said:
These are being sold on ebay for up to £200 but as far as I know they are nothing to do with the Mills grenade.

From what I have seen in official documents they are Royal Navy Shell Case Primer removal tools and were first issued in the early 1900s.
Click to expand...

Hi Ron

For $30 is probably a bargain. I remember seeing these illustrated in one of the Treatise documents from before WW1. So they existed before the Mills was even thought of.
 
They are Naval and I was politely told by an old RNAD PTO that they where for opening Naval cordite/gunpowder boxes. Never was able to find out which ones.
 
Here's a page from the 1915 Treatise on Ammunition, though I'm sure I also saw it in an earlier edition. From the look of the content it may have been prepared in 1914 or before as for example it only lists under grenades, the No. 1.


img170.jpg

I think that conclusively links them to primers and not Mills grenades.
 
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If the key is gun metal (not steel), then a key for a Case, Powder, Metal Lined, used for storage of wet guncotton should not be overlooked.
 
My one is brass with a wooden handle,

Key No 24 001.jpgKey No 24 002.jpgKey No 24 003.jpg

The markings on the shaft are RL I /I\ 9 - 11 N and the handle are RCD OR RGD small N and 1911, being brass it could do both jobs.
 
I cannot match the width of the 2 prongs to fit any of my UK primer slots. The diameter seems a bit wide and wrong width.
A mystery. The primer key No 24 shown seems to have a much shorter pin length?
For BMG50 YES I have the bent wire key for the No36 and also a key with triangular end with 2 pins and a round screw-driver type end extension that i assume is used to re-set the striker in Practice N036 grenades? I cannot find it for a photo at this moment. Sorry but I guess it is well known to collectors?
I thank all contributors to this thread. Ron.
 
ron3350 said:
I cannot match the width of the 2 prongs to fit any of my UK primer slots. The diameter seems a bit wide and wrong width.
A mystery. The primer key No 24 shown seems to have a much shorter pin length?
For BMG50 YES I have the bent wire key for the No36 and also a key with triangular end with 2 pins and a round screw-driver type end extension that i assume is used to re-set the striker in Practice N036 grenades? I cannot find it for a photo at this moment. Sorry but I guess it is well known to collectors?
I thank all contributors to this thread. Ron.
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I think we can now clearly show that this has nothing to do with Mills Grenades, despite what some selling sites claim. My problem is that we have two different keys, the all metal and the wooden variant. The all metal is clearly a Key No 24 as shown in the two publications, which leaves us with the problem of what is the wooden variant is, I have also tried my key on my WW2 3 pdr cases and it does not fit. I do not have an all metal key to compare sizes. I can only conclude that I have to come full circle that the wooden handled variant is maybe a box Key as suggested by Snufkin. which is what I was originally told. I will need to find some good pictures and diagrams for the Case, Powder, Metal Lined, for Wet Guncotton to be able to confirm either way.

If we look at some of the key points,

RL would not have produced a key for the Navy for an item that had not yet been invented.

We have documentary evidence to show the all metal key is most lightly (subject to size confirmation) a Primer adapter Key No 24.

We have a wooden handle with a brass spigot marked for Naval service that would comply with the safety requirement for a brass box. Brass on Brass no spark. just what you want in a ships magazine or an RNAD.
 
ron3350 said:
For BMG50 YES I have the bent wire key for the No36 and also a key with triangular end with 2 pins and a round screw-driver type end extension that i assume is used to re-set the striker in Practice N036 grenades? I cannot find it for a photo at this moment. Sorry but I guess it is well known to collectors?
I thank all contributors to this thread. Ron.
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This one I think Ron.

SSCN0898.JPG
 
I knew I'd seen it in an earlier edition....

The 1905 Treatise on Ammunition page 136.

"Keys

Key, Inserting Primer, Electric, QF., or QFC Large, Mark 1 is also used for screwing home electric primers or adaptors, it can also be used to remove unfired primers".

Diagram is in 1915 treatise.
 
I Have noticed there are a few on ebay and was surprised at the asking price of some of them and all say they are for the mills grenade, what would a fair price be for one ?
Cheers
Andy
 
Millsman said:
I knew I'd seen it in an earlier edition....

The 1905 Treatise on Ammunition page 136.

"Keys

Key, Inserting Primer, Electric, QF., or QFC Large, Mark 1 is also used for screwing home electric primers or adaptors, it can also be used to remove unfired primers".

Diagram is in 1915 treatise.
Click to expand...


Key, Inserting... is the already discussed Key No.24, its drawing posted in post #7. It and Key Removing... are shown in the drawings from 1902 ToA attached below.

No physical key shown so far matches exactly the drawing of Key No.24, the design of which would have been sealed according to its RL drawing.

Primer keys were manufactured to gauge to fit precision components (primers) that were also manufactured to gauge, and the pins would have fitted precisely and firmly into the primer key holes. The keys should also have at least the type number impressed or stamped into them.

The description of the Case, Powder, Metal Lined (CPML) from the 1902 ToA is also included. It used non-sparking gun-metal bolts and key (even though gun metal might look like brass). A whole range of Cases, Powder (pentagon, rectangular, cylindrical, metal lined) saw service, and the CPML went through to WWII and beyond. Note that on the handle of the 1940s dated keys are the letters ML. Might be a hint as to the use.



.
 

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Andysarmoury said:
I Have noticed there are a few on ebay and was surprised at the asking price of some of them and all say they are for the mills grenade, what would a fair price be for one ?
Cheers
Andy
Click to expand...

Over the last year I've mailed three of the ebay sellers saying their product is incorrectly described and told them what it was. Never had a response.

I'd have thought a fair UK price was about £25, especially now a second use has become known.
 
My steel key differs in measurements from the drawing of Key Inserting Mk1.
The handle is 3 7/8" wide and 2 3/4" high and is 1 1/8" across the two long prongs. Drawing shows 5" and 3 1/4" .
 
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