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Old no9 Garden Gun

1

18pounder

Guest
Does anyone know how one would have an old bolt action rifle
deactivated?

The gun in question is a no 9 bolt action smooth bore'garden gun',that was purchased from a 'hard ware' shop many many years ago (maybe 70 years +)


It would chamber a paper cartridge containing very small shot,or what was known as 'caps' that were essentially very small bullets.
It appeared to be alot less than a 22cal gun.

There is no ammunition with this gun as they were destroyed years ago for safety reasons.


It has been stored safely in a gun cabinet-
I'm not in possesion of this gun as I'm aware its a firearm.

I dont want to get into a position,that trying to get it deactivated ends up in the thing being destroyed.
This gun is very old,and very sentimental.It must be under a metre in height,with a lovelly wooden stock.

If anyone can help me with this as it means so much to me.
18pounder:tinysmile_kiss_t4:

p.s. information would be most welcome about the gun
 
Sounds like the gun in question is a 9mm garden gun, very popular even today. Came in many configurations ie single barrel, double even semi auto. It is an old calibre a rim-fire cartridge that dates back to Victorian times. Earlier cases were paper with a metal bottom but modern cases are all metal, i think you can still get them today. Very good on rats at close range, i use to have one and shot many a rat. Its not an obsolete cartridge so it doesn't fall under a licence free antique, still subject to shotgun cert but most of the older types had barrels at 23inches so subject to an FAC. I am sure that any FAC dealer will take it off your hands in safe custody to have it deactivated, cost is about 30-40 to get it done.
 
thankyou soo much mate.
its definitely less than a 22in...as it wouldnt accept a 22 cart.
I remember it went with more of a flash,and whoosh than a bang!! ha ha
I remember my Grandad trying to shoot a rat with it and when the smoke had cleared the rat had run off with the bread! ha ha.
Good memories.
Thanks for the info mate,what would the calibre be then?? 177 maybe..
18pounder
 
When you say it will not accept a .22 cartridge, do you mean the bore is smaller than a .22?

If so, it is not a 9mm garden gun, as the bore of that is as it says, 9mm or about .36 inches and a .22 would just drop through the barrel.

I cannot think of any cartridge that was about .177 calibre and used in a bolt action weapon.

However, as BMG50 says, a dealer should be able to sort you out. Just make sure that it needs to be de-activated first. If you still have access to it you could maybe post a picture or the markings on it.

Regards
TonyE
 
thanks
no it wouldnt accept a 22 breach was too small,and the carts were long thin paper,blue/green colour with diamonds on the design....the shot inside looked very fine
I know when it was fired,it didnt seem to have enough power to break your skin!
anyone know who,where and when then were made?
18pounder
ta
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'd just like to say a thankyou to all BOCN members.
Whenever Ive posted something on BOCN the response has always been helpfull,respectfull and friendly-regardless of the query or discussion.:tinysmile_shy_t:

Its the Friendliest site I know.
Thankyou.
 
6mm Flobert

i suspect you are correct and it is a 6mm.

I think the cartridges are still available in Europe. I will scan a picture from an old catalogue and post it later.

Regards
TonyE
 
old shotgun

Might be worth checking if it now falls into obsolete calibre that some shotguns do ie 4bore and 8bore, cant recall if any small ones do. There were a number of small shotgun calibres and I think initial confusion started with no.9 being taken as the same as 9mm. If it is obsolete you should be able to leave it alone and hang it on a wall much like old rifles, the bore length if obsolete should not be a consideration. However you should get confirmation from a reliable source ie read the various firearm acts yourself, should be on the net or contact your local firearms officer once you are pretty sure you are legal.
2pr
 
Hi 2pr,

I think you'tt find 4 and 8 bore still need a cert and are not obsolete.
Below is the list of obsolete calibers recognised

Appendix 5
ANTIQUE FIREARMS: OBSOLETE CALIBRES
.22 Extra Long Maynard (B)
.22-15-60 Stevens (B)
.22CF (E&B)
.230CF (E&B)
.25/20 Single Shot (B)
.25/21 Stevens (B)
.25/25 Stevens (B)
.250 Rook (or .297/.250 Rook) (H)
.255 Jeffrey Rook (H)
.275 Jeffrey (H)
.276 Enfield P.13 (Hu)
.28/30/120 Stevens (B)
.297/.230 Sporting (H)
.297/.230 Morris (H)
.298 Minex (H)
.300 (.295) Rook (H)
.300 Sherwood (H)
.300/.250 Rook (H)
.30/30 Wesson (D)
.30/40 Wesson (D)
.310 Cadet (H)
.310 Greener
.31 Thuer
.310/.300 Rook (H)
.320/.230 Rook (H)
.32 Protector (W&M)
.32 Long Rifle CF (NB recommended for
section 58(2) in rifles only) (B)
.32/35 Stevens (D)
.32/40 Remington-Hepburn (D)
.32/40 Bullard (B)
.32/40 Winchester and Ballard (B)
.32 Ideal (B)
.32 .44 Smith & Wesson (W&M)
.320 British (also known as the .320
Revolver C.F., Short or Long) (W&M)
.35/30 Maynard (B)
.35/40 Maynard (B)
.340 Short or Long Revolver (W&M)
.360 Thuer
.360 Rook (also known as the .360 No. 5 )
(H) (recommended for section 58(2) rifles
only)
.360 shot gun
.360 Westley Richards No.3 Express (H)
.360 No.3 Gibbs (H)
.360 Gibbs No.4 (also known as the .380
Gibbs No. 4)
.360/.300 Fraser (H)
.360 2 7/16 Black Powder Express (H)
.360 2 3/4 Boxer (H)
.369 Purdey (H)
.38/35 Stevens Everlasting (D)
.38/40 Ballard Everlasting (D)
.38/40 Remington-Hepburn (D)
.38/45 Bullard (D)
.38/70 Winchester (D)
.38/56 Winchester (D)
.38/90 Winchester (B)
.380 Black Powder Express (also known as
the .380-21/4 Rigby and .360-21/4) (H)
.380 Long Rifle (NB recommended for
section 58(2) in rifles only) (H)
.40/40 Maynard (B)
.40/.50-70 Caliber Reduction Exptl.(H)
.400-2.5 inch Kynoch (H)
.400-3.25 inch Boxer (H)
.400-3 inch Purdey (H)
.40/60 Marlin (D)
.40/60 Winchester (D)
.40/60 Maynard (B)
.40/70 Ballard (D)
.40/70 Sharps Necked (D)
.40/70 Sharps Straight (D)
.40/70 Maynard (B)
.40/70 WCF (B)
.40/72 Winchester (D)
.40/75 Bullard (D)
.40/82 Winchester (D)
 
.40/90 Bullard (D)
.40/90 What Cheer (D)
.40/50 Sharps Straight (D)
.40/65 Sharps Straight (D)
.40/65 WCF (D)
.40/90 Sharps Necked (D)
.40/40 Maynard (B)
.40/60 Maynard (B)
.40/63 Ballard (B)
.40/65 Ballard Everlasting (B)
.40/70 Maynard (B)
.40/70 Peabody What Cheer (B)
.40/85 Ballard (B)
.40/110 Winchester Express (B)
.400 2 3/4 Westley Richards (H)
.402 Enfield-Martini Exptl. (H)
.42/.50-70 Caliber Reduction Exptl. (H)
.425 Webley (H)
.425 Webley 1 5/16 (H)
.430 Long Rifle (also known as the .430 Long
Revolver) (W&M)
.430 Revolver (W&M)
.44 Thuer
.44 Morse necked (H)
.44-50 Meigs (H)
.44 Dupee rimless (H)
.44/60 Creedmore (D)
.44/77 Remington (D)
.44/90 Sharps 2 7/16 inch (D)
.44/90 Sharps 2 5/8 inch (D)
.44/90 Remington Special (B)
.44/95 Peabody What Cheer (B)
.44/100 Maynard (H)
.44 Evans Short and Long (B)
.44 Devilliers (W&M)
.440 Revolver (W&M)
.440 Long Revolver (W&M)
.440 Nagant (Argentine model) (W&M)
.442 Carbine 1.025" (H)
.442 revolver (also known as .44 Webley)
(W&M)
.442 Long Revolver (W&M)
.44 Colt Revolver (W&M)
.44 Remington Revolver (W&M)
.44 S&W American (W&M)
.44 Merwin Hulbert Long (W&M)
.44 Merwin Hulbert Short (W&M)
.44 S&W Russian (W&M)
.45-85 Ward Burton Exptl. (H)
.45/.50-70 Caliber Reduction Expti. (H)
.45 US Exptl, 1869 (H)
.45-200-500 Winchester Exptl. (H)
.45 Boxer-Henry Long Chamber 1869 (H)
.45 New South Wales Police Carbine (H)
.45 Gardner & Gatling (H)
.45 Mars Long (W&M)
.45 Mars Short (W&M)
.45 MP (very rare Maxim Pistol round
mentioned in the Journal of the Historical
Breechloading Smallarms Association Vol 2
No 6 Page 24)
.450 No. 1 Bland (E&B)
.450 Soper 2.5 inch (H)
.450 Needham (H)
.450 No. 1 Musket (H)
.450/.360 Purdey (H)
.450/.350-2 3/8 inch (H)
.45/75 WCF (Hu)
.45 Brown Standard Military Target Rifle (D)
.45/50 Sporting (D)
.450/.400 Black Powder in case lengths of
23/8", 27/8", 219/32" Thomas Turner No 2, 23/4"
Westley Richards and 31/4". Also the .450.400
3" Jeffrey (H)
.450 Black Powder Express in case lengths
of 11/2", 21/2", 29/16", 26/10", 3", 31/16" and
31/4" (H)
.45/125 Winchester (B)
.45 Turkish Peabody (also known as the
11.43 x 55R Turkish) (B)
.46 Winchester (H)
.461 Gibbs No. 1 (H)
.461 Gibbs No. 2 (H)
.476 Indian Police (H)
.48 Morse (H)
.490 BSA (H)
.50/.58 Morse sleeved (H)
 
.50 Morse (H)
.50 Meigs (H)
.50-.48 Meigs (H)
.50 Peabody (?) (H)
.50 Spencer Carbine (H)
.50 Springfield Cadet (H)
.50-70 Springfield (H)
.50 Daws Patent 1867 (H)
.50 Boxer 1867 (H)
.50/50 Maynard (B)
.50/70 Maynard (H)
.500/.450 Westley Richards No.2 Musket (H)
.500-1.5 inch (H)
.500-2-25 inch (H)
.500-2.5 inch (H)
.500-3 inch (H)
.500-3.25 inch (H)
.500/.450 No.1 Carbine (H)
.500/.450 Webley Carbine (H)
.500/-450-2.5 inch (H)
.500/.450 No.1 Express (H)
.500/.450-3 3/8 inch (H)
.500/.450- 3.5 inch (H)
.50 Remington Army Pistol, M1871 (W&M)
.50 Remington Navy Pistol, M1867 (W&M)
.50 Springfield Pistol, M1869 (W&M)
.500 Revolver (W&M)
.50/95 Winchester (D)
.50-100 Winchester Express (D)
.50-110 Winchester Express (D)
.50/115 Bullard (B)
.50/140 Sharps (B)
.52-70 Sharps (H)
.54 Morse (H)
.55 Morse (H)
.55 Gatling (H)
.55/100 Maynard (B)
.56-56 US Exptl. (H)
.577 Selwyn 1865 (H)
.577 Daws Patent 1867 (H)
.577 Snider (H)
.577/.450 Martini-Henry (H)
.577-2.25 inch (H)
.577 2.5 inch (H)
.577-2.75 inch (H)
.577/.500 No.2 Express (H)
.577/.500 Magnum Express (H)
.577 Pistol (W&M)
.58 Morse (H)
.58 US Converted Musket, 1865 (H)
.58 Remington Carbine (H)
.58 US Berdan System Conversion (11)
.58 Tibbals/Roberts 1869 (H)
.58 Roberts (H)
.60 Chinese Jingal (H)
.65 Gatling (H)
.69 Morse (H)
.75 Gatling (H)
.75 Chinese Jingal (H)
.80 Gatling (H)
1 inch Nordenfelt-Palmcranz (H)
20 bore/.577 Alex. Henry (H)
2.7mm Kolibri (W&M)
3mm Kolibri (W&M)
4.25mm Liliput (W&M)
5mm Bergmann NO.2 Pistol (W&M)
5mm Charola-Anitua (W&M)
5mm Clement (W&M)
5mm Brun (E&B)
5mm French (E&B)
5mm Pickert (E&B)
5.2mm Pickert revolver (W&M)
5.2mm Mondragon (Hu)
5.2mm x 34R Kronprinz (D)
5.43mm x 26.BR revolver (W&M)
5.5mm Velo-Dog revolver (W&M)
5.6mm x 34R Francotte Carbine (D)
5.6mm x 33 Rook (B)
6mm Beaumont revolver (W&M)
6mm Merveilleux (W&M)
6mm Protector (W&M)
6mm Lee Navy (Hu)
6mm x 58 Gewehrprufungskommission
M1897 (also 6 x 5 8 Forster)
6mm x 58 Forster (B)
6mm x 29.5 Stahl (D)
6.3mm x 21 rimless (W&M)
6.5mm Bergmann No.3 Pistol (W&M)
6.5mm Mannlicher Pistol M.1894 (W&M)
6.5mm Mondragon (Hu)
6.5mm x 27R (D)
6.5mm x 4OR (B)
6.5mm x 48R Sauer (B)
6.5mm Ronezewsky (E&B)
6.6mm x 7OR (D)
6.8mm x 19.6 Revolver (W&M)
6.8mm Schulhof pistol (W&M)
7mm Bar (W&M)
7mm Charola y Anitua (W&M)
7mm French thick rim (W&M)
7mm Galand (W&M)
7mm Revolver (W&M)
7mm CF Walking Stick
7mm Devisme (E&B)
7mm German Target Pistol Cartridges (Nos.
46-49, E&B)
7.25mm Adler (W&M)
7.5mm x 53.5R Rubin (H)
7.5mm x 53.5 Rimless Rubin (H)
7.5mmx 53 Swiss Schmidt Rubin M.1890 (H)
7.53mm x 60R Hebler (H)
7.65mm Frommer M. 1901 (W&M)
7.65mm Roth-Sauer (W&M)
7.7mm Bittner pistol (W&M)
7.7mm x 60R (D)
 
7.8mm Bergmann No.5 (E&B)
7.8mm x 19R Laumann (referred to in
J.HBSA Vol 2 No 6, as above)
8mm German Target Pistol (No. 86, E&B)
8mm Schonberger (W&M)
8mm x 55R Petit Gras (H)
8mm x 58R Petit Gras (H)
8mm x 57R Petit Gras (H)
8mm x 75R Pieri (H)
8mm x 61R Rubin (H)
8mm x 57.5R Rubin (H)
8mm x 57R Spanish Exptl. (H)
8mm x 60R Guedes and Portuguese
Kropatschek (H)
8mm Gaulois pistol (W&M)
8mm Bergmann No.1 pistol (D)
8mm x 48R (D)
8mm x 72R (D)
8mm x 48R Sauer (B)
8mm x 58R Sauer (B)
8mm Bergmann No.4 (E&B)
8mm Bergmann No.7 (E&B)
8mm Bergmann-Schmeisser (E&B)
8mm Protector (E&B)
8mm Raphael (E&B)
8mm Schulof (E&B)
8.15mm x 46R (Hu)
8.15mm Mauser Experimental (ECRA)
8.3mm x 53.5R Rubin (H)
8.5mm Mars (E&B)
9mm x 5l.5R Rubin (H)
9mm x 57R Rubin (H)
9mm Devisme (E&B)
9mm Moutier rimless-grooveless (E&B)
9mm French Thick Rim (E&B)
9mm Mars (E&B)
9mm Belgian Nagant (W&M)
9.1mm x 40 Walking Stick
9.3mm x 58R Koeffler (H)
9.3mm x 63.5R Koeffler (H)
9.3mm x 70R (D)
9.3mm x 75R Nimrod (D)
9.3mm x 82R Nimrod (D)
9.3mm x 65R Collath (B)
9.4mm Dutch Revolver (W&M)
9.5mm x 59R Gras Exptl. (H)
9.5mm x 60R Turkish Mauser (H)
9.5mm x 42R (D)
9.5mm x 47R (ECRA)
10mm x 47R (D)
10mm Gaupillat (E&B)
10mm Bergmann (E&B)
10mm Mars (ECRA)
10mm Mauser Short (E&B)
10mm Mauser Long (E&B)
10.15mm x 61R (H)
10.15mm x 63R Serbian mauser (H)
10.15mm x 61R Jarmann (H)
10.16mm x 57R Berdan Exptl. (H)
10.25mm x 69R Hunting-Express (B)
10.3mm x 41R (H)
10.3mm x 65R Baenziger (D)
10.35mm x 47R Italian Vetterli (H)
10.4mm x 56R Swiss (H)
10.4mm x 42R Swiss Vetterli (H)
10.4mm x 38R Martini-Galland (D)
10.4mm Swiss M.1878 (W&M)
10.4mm x 47R Stahl (D)
10.6mm German Ordnance Revolver
(W&M)
10.6mm Mauser (W&M)
10.66mm x 57R Russian Berdan (H)
10.66mm x 48R Russian Berdan Carbine (H)
10.7mm x 57R Krag Petersson (H)
10.75mm x 55R (H)
10.8mm x 47 Martini (B)
11mm x 42R (H)
11mm x 45R (H)
11mm x 53 Gevelot (H)
11mm Manceux (H)
11mm x 59R Gras (H)
11mm x 48.5R Gras Battalion Ecole (H)
11mm x 50.5R Comblain (H)
11mm x 43R Comblain Carbine (H)
11mm x 70R Mitrailleuse (H)
11mm x 46R (H)
 
11mm x 50R Egyptian Remington (H)
11mm x 57R Spanish Remington (H)
11mm Devisme (E&B)
11mm French Ordnance Revolver M1870
(Navy) (ECRA)
11mm French Ordnance Revolver M1873
(Army) (W&M)
11 mm Devilliers (W&M)
11.15mm x 42R Austrian Werndl (H)
11.15mm x 36R Austrian Werndl Carbine (H)
11.15mm x 58R Austrian Werndl, Holub (see
below) and Mannlicher (H)
11.15mm x 36R Fruhwirth (H)
11.15mm x 60R Mauser (H)
11.15mm x 37R (H)
11.15mm x 60R Japanese Murata (H)
11.5mm x 50R (D)
11.15mm x 58R
11.15mm x 65R (D)
11.15mm x 71R (D)
11.15mm x 52 Walking Stick
11.2mm x 51R Kropatschek-Hessig (D)
11.2mm x 39.6R (D)
11.25mm x 44.5R (H)
11.3mm x 51R Dutch Beaumont (H)
11.35mm Schouboe (Rimmed and Rimless
Version) (W&M)
11.4mm x 53R Brazilian Comblain (H)
11.4mm x 44.5R Dutch Gendarmerie Carbine
(H)
11.4mm x 57R Spanish Remington (H)
11.43mm x 49R Romanian Peabody (H)
11.43mm x 59R Turkish Peabody-Martini (H)
11.43mm x 41R Peabody Carbine (H)
11.5mm x 50R Austrian Werder (H)
11.5mm x 35R Werder Carbine (H)
11.5mm x 60R (D)
11.53mm Albini-Braendlin (H)
11.6mm x 50R Chilean Comblain (H)
11.7mm x 57R Berdan Exptl. (H)
11.7mm x 41.5R Danish Remington (H)
11.7mm x 45.5R Danish Remington (H)
11.7mm x 51.6R Danish Remington (H)
12mm Perrin Thick Rim (E&B)
12mm Raphael (E&B)
12mm Moutier (E&B)
12mm Pidault & Cordier (E&B)
12.2mm x 70R Mitrailleuse (H)
12.5mm x 60R (D)
12.7mm x 48R (H)
12.7mm x 70R Mitrailleuse (H)
12.8mm x 45R Papal Remington (H) (also
known as the 12.7mm x 45R)
13mm x 87R Mitrailleuse (H)
13mm Rochaz-Lindner (H)
13mm x 92 Mauser T-Gew (H)
13.2mm x 32R (H)
14.5mm x 33R Austrian Wanzl (H)
14.5mm x 41R Spanish Berdan (H)
14.66mm x 35R Serbian Peabody (H)
14.7mm x 58R Schneider (H)
15mm revolver (W&M)
15.2mm x 110R Mitrailleuse (H)
15.2mm x 28R (H)
15.24mm x 40R Krnka (H)
16.5mm x 18R Beringer (E&B)
17mm Danish Snider (Hu)
17.5mm x 29R Dutch Snider (Hu)
18mm x 35R Tabatiere (H)
18.84mm x 38R Tabatiere (H)
18.84mm x 57R Wanzl-Albini (H)

Regards,

C.
 
This bit should have gone at the begining

Breech-loading firearms originally chambered
for the following ammunition, and which
retain that original chambering, should be
regarded as benefiting from exemption as
antiques under section 58(2) of the Firearms
Act 1968.
[NOTES]
1. All the cartridges listed are centre-fire.
2. The chances of the survival of more
than a tiny number of most of these
cartridges or of the arms which they
fit are very low indeed. But those
firearms listed in bold may survive in
some quantity.
3. Each cartridge in the list is followed by
initials referring to a published source
whose description may be accepted as
the norm for each round. These are as
follows
B Cartridges of the World, by Barnes
D Cartridges for Collectors, by Datig
(three vols)
ECRA-European Cartridge Research
Association Data Viewer
E&B Manual of Pistol and Revolver
Cartridges, by Erlmeier and Brandt
H The History and Development of
Small Arms Ammunition, by Hoyem
(volumes two and three)
Hu Military Rifle and Machine Gun
Cartridges, by Huon
W&M Pistol and Revolver Cartridges,
by White & Munhall, single volume edition
by Bearse.
Bold type is used to describe those obsolete
calibres for which firearms may be found in
some quantities. This list will be reviewed and
updated as necessary.
 
Hello
My grandfather gave me a 9mm garden gun, (Flobert cartridges), on my tenth birthday. I took it home proudly, on the top deck of a Southdown Bus. I wouldn't advise trying that today. My friend had a similar one in 6mm. The cartridges were all paper with short copper case, and diamond pattern design on paper. 6mm green and white, 9mm pink and white. After firing the only thing ejected was the copper base.
All best,
navyman.
 
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