What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Ownership of Militaria/ordnance.

gothica7

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi all,
here is one for thought.

Does the MOD or whatever it is or was in the past ever sell off or release ordnance thats old, obsolete or not used anymore? If it dosnt, does it still own all the things we collect? What about things picked up on ranges etc? This will be shrapnel, casings, bullets, fuzes etc.
Is this a grey area or is there something in law that says finders keepers?
Will we all have a problem if the MOD says its theirs?

Andy
 
Ii think that there are 3 separate issues here - Firstly disposal of stocks by MOD does occur but only to approved contractors for destruction or in some cases component and substance recovery.
The second issue is the removal of items of whatever description from land currently occupied by MOD (or MOD agencies) - potentially theft? Has anyone ever been prosecuted?
Last issue is that of legacy items left by MOD or War Office etc and recovered from land subsequently sold on - once again potentiall theft - from whom?

I suppose the bottom line is that everything has an owner in the eyes of the law - are there any quoted cases relating to ordnance items?

Sorry - more questions than answers.
 
That's a very good question and one that gets raised in the US all the time.

I've heard from numerous people "Ordnance is owned by the US Gov't" but no one has ever shown me where the law says that. AR 75-15 states that the Army is responsible for identification and remediation of ordnance recovered above the high water line and the Navy is responsible for items below it. Responsibility does not equate to ownership. One can take that even farther by questioning the issue of if they have any claim if there is no explosive hazard to the item.

The FBI recently published a guide to Civil War ordnance that states "Civil War Ordnance is the property of the United States Government" which in my mind says "Since you have it and it's ours, we can come take it when we want" and that is just not the case.

The classic argument I use with squads is "How can the US Gov't claim ownership to a WWI German hand grenade that I purchased from someone in Poland?". They can't.

Every squad that I encounter I tell them the same thing, if you are removing a piece of ordnance from someone's house or property because of a call you received, you better have a piece of paper that abandons that item to you or a warrant that allows you to seize it. Without one or the other you risk opening yourself up to a law suit.

Oh and that reminds me, if you are a collector do us and everyone else a favor...let those around you know who to call immediately if something bad happens to you. There is nothing worse than seeing someones collection get destroyed because someone in the family doesn't know that the items are inert, doesn't know who to call and turns to the local bomb squad for help. 95% of the time that scenario ends with most if not all of the items being destroyed in a field by a big counter charge.
 
Interesting comments regarding the trail of ownership - battlefield to current owner possibly through the hands of numerous collectors or dealers each presuming absolute title whilst it was in their possession.
A good comment also regarding provisions to be taken by friends/relatives as and when you pass on. In the UK those persons with ammunition collections held on Firearms Certificates should seriously consider this issue as it not just a mater of having the collection bequeathed in a will. Any family member ( or indeed any other person) wishing to continue with the collection must demonstrate the same "good reason" to the police for wanting to collect ammunition.
Those who have extensive collections not subject to Firearms certification should consider making documentary provision for it to be passed on in the event of death, and perhaps any documents should also include a complete catalogue of the collection and some form of self certification or independent verification of FFE status and most importantly the documents should be very accessible - there is no point in it being found after the police and EOD have dispatched a lifetimes work to the four winds.
 
At least in the United States, possesion accounts of 9 of the 10 points of ownership law. Just try and pry it from my hands, a difficult task with one freakin' eye!!!! Your friend Dano
 
Does anyone know of any prosecutions in the UK or elsewhere when items in a collection have been deemed to be stolen from the Crown or the State?
I am aware of the many horror stories regarding over zealous and allegedly heavy handed policing when collectors have been investigated but I'm still not sure what evidence a prosecutor could put forward to prove theft of an article that may be upwards of 100 yrs old.
 
In my country the law on lost and found property clearly states that ALL found property that belongs or have belonged to our army or any other army are our army property.
Ironically I know some cases when items which our army has legally sold in their surplus shops to collectors have been detected at home search and taken back to army and destroyed.
Naturally to commit a home search our athorities must have a good reason and these inert ordnance items have been only a side object, but anyway.
 
I say collect, enjoy collecting, and let the chips fall where they may. It would take a "squealer" for anyone to even know what is in ones private posession. Just be discreet and careful who you let know what you have. You know what we do to squealers, don't you? On the serious side, collect softly and carry a big stick....Dano
 
With reference to the UK only any MOD property remains the property of the Crown/MOD.
Only if you can prove it is from an approved source post MOD can you keep it - as long as it is legal within Firearms Act etc to keep.
Upon saying that the MOD are going to have a hard case to prove if they come & take away/prosecute you for having a 1915 18Pdr case. They usually go for people caught leaving ranges etc with items which is an easy one. The MO though usually settle for just confiscating.
I have been `raided` & whilst it was unpleasant it was the local civvy police & it all worked out. However Terry Field at Spec aucts has a very different tale to tell but the reason for his being `raided` was different as well.
Common sense & abidding to the law are the best routes but unfortunately the authorities are usually low on the 1st & don`t understand the 2nd themselves!
As dano says keep collecting but discretion & silence may be the best route. We have an interest which is not understood for what it is by most & some of those people thing we are all members of something more sinister!
 
The frustration expressed by collectors in their dealings with the authorities in the UK raises the question - Other than in the circumstances currently permitted by the Firearms Acts, what legal protection would collectors of inert ordnance items wish to see that would enable hassle free possession, sale, transfer, display etc of such items?
 
Great thread Gentlemen.
Personally i would like to see some sort of licence for keeping inert items.All items are then recorded on a disc/paperwork then both parties keep a copy.

best

waff
 
Thanks very much guys for your contributions. I only brought the subject up as i know of someone who has recently had all his British ordnance collection removed by EOD, including Mills grens, who stated it was all Crown property. Rounds, shells, the lot. They left the foreign stuff. I do hope this isnt the way its all going to go.

Andy
 
Great thread Gentlemen.
Personally i would like to see some sort of licence for keeping inert items.All items are then recorded on a disc/paperwork then both parties keep a copy.

best

waff
Be careful what you wish for. As with registration of anything, they know where it all is when they decide to take it away.
 
Falcon my friend,i wasnt aiming to provoke. :)
I see your point but with todays political climate then being registered maybe a positive step?

best

waff
 
I didn't think you were intending to provoke.

This is exactly the same as gun registration and why the Americans are rightly so resistant to it. If the government decided to get rid of all legally owned guns in the UK tomorrow, no one could do a thing about it. I fear it would be the same with ordnance. More government interference in our lives is never a positive step.
 
That's a very good question and one that gets raised in the US all the time.

I've heard from numerous people "Ordnance is owned by the US Gov't" but no one has ever shown me where the law says that. AR 75-15 states that the Army is responsible for identification and remediation of ordnance recovered above the high water line and the Navy is responsible for items below it. Responsibility does not equate to ownership. One can take that even farther by questioning the issue of if they have any claim if there is no explosive hazard to the item.

The FBI recently published a guide to Civil War ordnance that states "Civil War Ordnance is the property of the United States Government" which in my mind says "Since you have it and it's ours, we can come take it when we want" and that is just not the case.

The classic argument I use with squads is "How can the US Gov't claim ownership to a WWI German hand grenade that I purchased from someone in Poland?". They can't.

Every squad that I encounter I tell them the same thing, if you are removing a piece of ordnance from someone's house or property because of a call you received, you better have a piece of paper that abandons that item to you or a warrant that allows you to seize it. Without one or the other you risk opening yourself up to a law suit.

Oh and that reminds me, if you are a collector do us and everyone else a favor...let those around you know who to call immediately if something bad happens to you. There is nothing worse than seeing someones collection get destroyed because someone in the family doesn't know that the items are inert, doesn't know who to call and turns to the local bomb squad for help. 95% of the time that scenario ends with most if not all of the items being destroyed in a field by a big counter charge.

The US government has, in the past released substantial amounts of ordnance to the public. Back in the 70s and 80s large quanties was sold through the Property Management Office, right along with sleeping bags and mess kits. One of the last ordnance type items I remember seeing sold was the old M1 chemical mine ((1 gallon gas can). They were sold in lots of 20 or more. I used to also pick up the mortar subcal kits, with barrel, projectiles, barrel inserts.

For years ordnance scrap was sold from many facilities to scrap dealers with no requirements. You could go into scrap yards and buy whatever was there for scrap prices, by the ton. This began to tighten up in the mid 1980s after some accidents, again after the death in Fontana, Californa in 1996.

In addition there have been many items built by the military industrial complex, to be put forth as proposals offered fro sale to the government. Once rejected (or even accepted) the proposal pieces are dealt with as the company sees fit. One recent example of this is the General Dynamics mini grenade. Reportedly only 500 were made, the US govt didn't accept them, now collectors are scrambling for them.

I had it explained to me one time by an old Criminal Investigations officer (CID) who said, so much has been released over the years, unless it violates a law by either being live (>20mm) or classified, we have to prove theft. If its inert, unclass and there has been no theft reported, there is no crime for us to pursue.

Obviously not everyone has to agree, but it would seem an uphill fight by law enforcement to prove otherwise.
 
Any scheme of registration must be relevant, appropriate to the needs of the hobby, and above all - fit for purpose. I would take a view that in the UK there is no current legislation that would act as a suitable vehicle for a system of registration of inert ordnance, and that introducing the concept of such a scheme would be very near to the bottom of any Governments "wish list" of new legislation. A solution may be for the hobby to police itself and through a nationally recognised body such as BOCN establish a definitve set of policies and supporting documents that would enable collections to be registered by a national controlling body (BOCN?) and that any such registration is accepted by enforcing authorities such as police, HSE, and HMRC.
Food for thought?
 
I didn't think you were intending to provoke.

This is exactly the same as gun registration and why the Americans are rightly so resistant to it. If the government decided to get rid of all legally owned guns in the UK tomorrow, no one could do a thing about it. I fear it would be the same with ordnance. More government interference in our lives is never a positive step.


No worries my young friend,
The thing is if indeed the items do ever get made illegal to own without a licence then imagine the trouble if caught without correct documentation? :(
Its a question of time i reckon before the law changes,dunno why? Its just a feeling im getting in general when i read about raids and things being taken away.

regards

waff
 
Last edited:
Thanks very much guys for your contributions. I only brought the subject up as i know of someone who has recently had all his British ordnance collection removed by EOD, including Mills grens, who stated it was all Crown property. Rounds, shells, the lot. They left the foreign stuff. I do hope this isnt the way its all going to go.

Andy

There has to be a bit more to this: EOD don't do random house calls.

However, it might have been 'Crown property' once, but how did they dispose of it? Post WWII HMG assisted in re-arming most of Europe's armed forces. So HMG relinquished all rights to the ordnance. An example is a couple of years back at 'War and Peace' I saw some British Torpedo pistols that had been given to Germany when she was allowed to re-arm. The Germans had then subsequently sold them to the Greek Navy, who then disposed of them to a member of this forum.

To satisfy a Court beyond all reasonable doubt that the ordnance had been stolen from the Crown would nigh on impossible (in most cases)

If an innocent person buys, in honest circumstances, stolen goods they have a legal claim to that property. (It's a bit more than that but one gets into case law etc.). In most UK police forces the standing order relating to people driving 'rung cars' (maybe worth tens of thousands of pounds) is that if the officers are satisfied that the vehicle was purchased honestly, the vehicle is not to be seized.

I would be interested to know more about the European systems, especially the Dutch, where you have to be a member of ECRA.

Regards

TimG
 
Top