Please help in identifying these bullets

[tech13]

I have two sets of bullets which have been handed down through the generations of our family. Now, I'm lead to believe that these date from WW1, however they could as easily be from WW2.

The first set of 5 is on a stripper clip with no markings (only a small symbol in the middle). The actual bullet measures slightly shorter than 8mm across and is 28mm long (when removed from casing) and appears to be made of brass and is pointed. The casing measures just over 56mm long and is just shy of 12mm across the base. The bullets have 4 markings stamped north, south, east, west of each other in the base. Three of the 5 have the following markings in the base S67, P, 11, 15, one the other has S67, P, 9 or 6, 15 and the last one has S67, P, 4, 16.

The other set is held within a metal clip with sides (that comes up as high as the neck of the casing) and a round hole in the centre of the sides. The casings appear to be of the same dimensions as the first set, however the bullet is a steel colour and has a rounded tip. They measure just shy of 8mm across and are about 31mm long (when removed from casing). All five of these have the following codes in the bottom in the same compass point pattern, S88, S, 2, 13.

Any help would be much appreciated as there has been much debate about these over the last 25 years or so.

 

[archmoco]

Maybe German 7.92 WW1

I have two sets of bullets which have been handed down through the generations of our family. Now, I'm lead to believe that these date from WW1, however they could as easily be from WW2.

The first set of 5 is on a stripper clip with no markings (only a small symbol in the middle). The actual bullet measures slightly shorter than 8mm across and is 28mm long (when removed from casing) and appears to be made of brass and is pointed. The casing measures just over 56mm long and is just shy of 12mm across the base. The bullets have 4 markings stamped north, south, east, west of each other in the base. Three of the 5 have the following markings in the base S67, P, 11, 15, one the other has S67, P, 9 or 6, 15 and the last one has S67, P, 4, 16.

The other set is held within a metal clip with sides (that comes up as high as the neck of the casing) and a round hole in the centre of the sides. The casings appear to be of the same dimensions as the first set, however the bullet is a steel colour and has a rounded tip. They measure just shy of 8mm across and are about 31mm long (when removed from casing). All five of these have the following codes in the bottom in the same compass point pattern, S88, S, 2, 13.

Any help would be much appreciated as there has been much debate about these over the last 25 years or so.

Hi Tech13,

Any chance of a photo? I'm shooting from the hip here, there are alot of very knowledgable guys out there that will help, but my guess is they might be German WW1 7.92mm, standard rifle/machine gun cartridge of the German army, are they like the photo I have attached (sorry about quality)?

If so the s67 is for Spandau the manufacture years are 1915 & 1916 (15&16) and the 11, 9, 6 are Lot numbers.
The 5 listed as 'Three of the 5 have the following markings in the base S67, P, 11, 15, one the other has S67, P, 9 or 6, 15 and the last one has S67, P, 4, 16.'

I don't have any of the rounded tipped but it is most likely Patrone 88 cartridges from the older model 1888 rifle. If you Google German army WW1 it will give you an idea.

 

[tech13]

Now i've figured out how to upload, here are some pics of the items in question.

The first three pics are together as are the last two.

Hope this helps.

 

[tech13]

Just thinking about it, does anyone have any idea about the uses for the two different types of clips?

I can see that the "stripper clip" would be placed on top and the bullets pressed in to the rifle in one go, but the other one seems a bit cumbersome.

 

[highlandotter]

1888 mauser clip

I believe the clip with the round hole is for the 1888 Mauser. It is inserted whole in the magazine well, Many Mannlicher rifles also insert the whole bit into the gun. Highlandotter

 

[TonyE]

7.92 x 57mm

Essentially you have been given the correct identification for these rounds as German 7.92 x 57mm, although the manufacturer details are not all quite correct.

The rounds with round nosed bullets are indeed Patronen 88 for the 1888 Commission rifle. The whole clip is inserted in the magazine as already mentioned. The rounds were made at the Royal Arsenal at Spandau as Lot 2 in 1913, as large numbers of the M1888 rifle were still in service with the German reserves, and continued to serve even in the front line during WWI.

The other rounds are in a charger for the M1898 rifle and are standard "S patronen", i.e. "Spitzer" or pointed cartridges. In this case the rounds were stripped from the charger into the magazine as already described. These were all made by "P", Polte, one of the largest German ammunition makers. The "S67" indicates that they are brass cases made with 67% copper in the brass alloy. The years and lot numbers are as already stated.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Dutch]

That is only the half story Tony. :tinysmile_hmm_t:

In WW1 the Germans had no lot numbers.
It is the month the case was made.

For this example; Spandau February 1913
This particular case was specially made for the Patrone 88 thats why the S (brass) and 88 are on the head stamp

Rgds
Dutch

 

[TonyE]

Patr. 88

Thanks Dutch. I was aware of that and should not have used the term "Lot 2". Also I should have said that the "S88" meant that the case was made for th M88 rifle, although I think that I made the point that these rounds were for the M88.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Falcon]

Why did they change the marking from "S88" (Brass Case, 1888 Rifle) to "S 67" (Brass case, 67% Copper) and not "S98" (Brass case, 1898 Rifle) when the Gew. 98 was adopted?

 

[TonyE]

S98?

I don't know, but I will asked Dieter Storz who wrote the definitive book on the G98 when I see him in August.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Dutch]

The story is more complicated..

Introducing the MG by the German forces they find out that the case made for the M88 rifle made a lot of problems. They designed a special case for the Machine guns. First with a 120 head stamp, later 90 with an additional M for MG in the head stamp. For identification, they made a stripe between the characters.
2. September 1899 the order from Berlin came to design one type of case, they could use in rifles and machine guns.
This case became an E (3 oclock) in the head stamp. The E means Einheidshlse. With the introduction from the E case, the M88 case was out of service and was only used for practice shooting.

After 2 years the case was replaced by the modern S case. But some state factorys produced the old E case until 1913!!!
The replacement from the M88 Rifle to Rifle M98 with S rounds was planned for 1907.
The standard case was now the S or later the S67 case. The difference is already explained by Tony.

Now we come to the S88 case.
After some information, Heeresverordnungsblatt from 1912 the cartridge M88 was loaded with 2.55 gram S-powder. Perhaps is that the reason for the S88 in the head stamp.
We find this round only made in 1912 and 1913. After that time the M88 was loaded in a normal case also used for the S round.

To make it not so complicated, all showed cartridges were made by Spandau.

Rgds
Dutch

P.S. Excuse my bad English.

 

[Falcon]

Thanks for explaining that.