Question about U.S. Pineapples

[Kilroy was Here]

Hello....I was wondering what other members knowledge and thoughts on this question are.....

Did the U.S. "during WW2", use the yellow type varnish to seal all the corks on the bottom of the blue training pineapples?

It's been my view that we did not use this varnish in WW2, and this procedure was started sometime post war :hmmmm:

I've thought that the WW2 practice grenades came fuzed in their cans, but NOT loaded with the small black powder packet and no cork installed. I thought the black powder charge and cork were supposed to be installed just before use at the training range.

***NOTE*** I know the pic is of a post war grenade body, it's the varnish like in the pic I am talking about.........

 

[Kilroy was Here]

:dontknow: anybody know?

 

[Eodtek]

Still digging through old manuals to see if the change in "user preparation" shows up.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Still digging through old manuals to see if the change in "user preparation" shows up.

Great, I was hoping the "manual man" (you) would show up....... :adore:

Thanks, let me know if you see something concrete about this.

 

[dano1917]

Steve, I asked my step grandfather who served in The Korean War, and he still has all his marbles. He seems to recall the practice pineapples coming fuzed but sans the cork and charge. He is 86 years old and sharp as a tack so I would take his word for gospel...Dano

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Steve, I asked my step grandfather who served in The Korean War, and he still has all his marbles. He seems to recall the practice pineapples coming fuzed but sans the cork and charge. He is 86 years old and sharp as a tack so I would take his word for gospel...Dano

My mother is 91 and still very sharp, so I tend to believe what your step grandfather said. That's very interesting because I would think at that time, the Korean war, they would have used the yellow varnish sealer.
But know that I think about it more, they could have been issued for use all different ways at different bases etc. knowing how the US government works sometimes. :wink:

I'm interested in what the specs were for pre Sept.1945 grenades.
I think the practice grenades with fuzes were shipped in cans, in regular wood crates, and with a can of corks and a can of black powder bags inside.

I'm hoping maybe Eodtek "the Manual Man" will find something concrete in some of those excellent manuals and documents he has at his disposal.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Hello Eodtek (Frank?) hope the holidays were good for you.

Have you had a chance to find out more about the question I asked below?

I'm trying to put together a definitive time line for U.S. training grenades. There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinformation about them. I would like to finally but it all to bed.

I hope you can find the answer to this varnish question. I really think it was a post war thing, but want to be positive.

Have a happy and healthy new years coming soon.

Regards, Steve

Still digging through old manuals to see if the change in "user preparation" shows up.

Hello....I was wondering what other members knowledge and thoughts on this question are.....

Did the U.S. "during WW2", use the yellow type varnish to seal all the corks on the bottom of the blue training pineapples?

It's been my view that we did not use this varnish in WW2, and this procedure was started sometime post war :hmmmm:

I've thought that the WW2 practice grenades came fuzed in their cans, but NOT loaded with the small black powder packet and no cork installed. I thought the black powder charge and cork were supposed to be installed just before use at the training range.

***NOTE*** I know the pic is of a post war grenade body, it's the varnish like in the pic I am talking about.........

 

[Grenademan2005]

Some pics for contribute to make more difficult the searching of Steve. Both grenades with original fuzes and still like I bought them long time ago from a good source.

 

[V40]

I am very confused NOW guys. However, I do have a manual (Grenade one) that dates back to 1949. I'll check it out and reply back. It will probably make me crumble into we pieces or parts.:cry:

 

[Grenademan2005]

I am very confused NOW guys. However, I do have a manual (Grenade one) that dates back to 1949. I'll check it out and reply back. It will probably make me crumble into we pieces or parts.:cry:

Thats the thing :tinysmile_tongue_t:.

 

[inertordnance]

I just pulled (4) random examples of WW2 Era Mk2 Practice Grenades with original finish, representing early to late war production and all have varying amounts of original (varnish or shellac) in and around the base holes. Another (5) WW2 Era Mk2 Practice Examples with original finish that I own and have just examined (Not shown), also all have traces of varnish or shellac.

Stay safe,

Frank

 

[V40]

Well, in the June 15, 1942 manual, that I forgot I had (SOG on the brain! which seemingly has a grip on my brain) states the following:

1) Grenade, hand, Practice, Mk. II has a igniting fuze (M10A1) with a reduced charge of black powder. Weight is 20 ounces. Does not burst but blows out the cork plug. Is colored Blue. Substitute for training grenade Mk. 1A1.

2) Grenade, hand, training, Mk. 1A1. No fuze. Weight is 20 ounces. Body is black. Used for training and throwing practice. No filler.

3) Body, Grenade, hand, fragmentation, Mk. II, with or without hand grenade fuze M5 (for dummy use). Weight is also 20 ounces. Painted black. No filler. Sustitute for training grenade Mk. 1A1.

Note: Numbers 1 and 3 are all a substitute for the Mk.1A1.
Also, the bodies of all above are made out of cast iron.

Now the following are all painted yellow and are used for producing casualties:

1) Grenade, hand, fragmentation, Mk. II, is issued complete with fuze and explosive filler. Uses igniting fuze M10A1. Filler is EC blank fire powder. Weight is 20 ounces.

2) Grenade, hand, fragmentation, HE, Mk. II. Uses the M5, detonating fuze. Filler is TNT. Limited standard. Superceded by grenade, hand, fragmentation, Mk.II, with hand grenade, igniting fuze M10A1. It is issued unfuzed but the grenade body is loaded with the TNT filler. The fuze is issued separately and must be assembled to the grenade prior to use. Makes sense to me.

Now is this making this thread worse?
I also have the manuals (FM-30's) on grenades as follows:

1) April 1949
2) October 1959

Does anybody want to hear about these two FM-30's and what had changed at these time periods?
It also states that the fragmentation fuze, outside of the detonator on the detonator itself is painted red.
Also, FYI, I find no references to shellac inside the bodies as of yet. Maybe like you stated Steve, that it could of been varnished? We have other facts about the grenades. Also, a fuze like that of the M204 is not silent in any way. The other fuzes with the "T-Lug" are silent. All of them that has a fuze of any sorts has a fuze length of 4 - 5 seconds.

Also, FYI, I find no references to shellac inside the bodies as of yet. A fuze like that of the M204 is not silent in any way. The other fuzes with the "T-Lug" are silent.

Funny thing is that the soilders throwing the grenades will be the ones who will police up the duds! They can either use a 1/2 pound block of TNT to destroy them or destroy them one at a time in a pit with hot coals. Either way they tell the student(s) to run like h_ll (paraphrased).

 

[Kilroy was Here]

I just pulled (4) random examples of WW2 Era Mk2 Practice Grenades with original finish, representing early to late war production and all have varying amounts of original (varnish or shellac) in and around the base holes. Another (5) WW2 Era Mk2 Practice Examples with original finish that I own and have just examined (Not shown), also all have traces of varnish or shellac.

Stay safe,

Frank

Hi Frank, thanks for checking yours and taking time to post some pics. I see that beautiful early blue again...that's nice one! :tinysmile_twink_t:

OK, so then yours show traces of the varnish. I have one with threaded hole and traces of varnish in my collection now, and a couple without varnish, and have had others and seen many others, some with, and some without traces of this varnish.....

These grenades "without" the varnish I feel are the true WW2 trainers, maybe Vet bring backs that have been completely untouched and never reloade since pre Sept 1945.

I will suggest and say with confidence that all or most of these WW2 era practice grenades we see and have were used and loaded again many times after Sept 1945, and who is to say this varnish wasn't applied post Sept 45?

What I am thinking and saying is, if correct, was that practice grenades in WW2 came in wooden crates containing 24 grenades, the grenades were fuzed and sealed in their M41 cans. Then there was a 25th M41 can that had the corks and black powder charges that would fill the 25th empty space in the crate.
Sso it seems to me, and makes sense that the 24 grenades in the crate would not have corks and sealer varnish. They would not be "ready to use" by just removing the grenades from their cans. Why would they include a can with corks and charges? Why didn't they include a bottle of varnish....I think because they were made for usage immediately, not for long term storage "during" WW2.

I think the complete practice grenades, with the corks-charges-varnish sealer was probably started to be done in the "very early post wartime era" with peacetime "Longer Term Storage" in mind, and that is why the sealer varnish was used.

They surely reused all the practice grenade bodies that were used in WW2 if they were still serviceable, don't you think?

Just because a WW2 blue practice grenade 65 years later has traces of varnish, does not mean that the varnish was put on the grenade prior to Sept 1945....... How do we know for sure "when" the varnish was applied to all these grenades we have, and have seen?

I think the only definitive way to answer this is from the U.S. Gov "minutes reports" or some other documentation that shows when this "varnish procedure was instituted"

Do you maybe agree with any of this? all thoughts welcome, just trying to get the time line and story straight. We really need some documentation.

 

[V40]

Steve,

buddy, did you read what I had posted?:tinysmile_hmm_t:

 

[Grenademan2005]

Steve when you get an idea in your mind... You are seeing MKII practice grenades in a lot of variations and always with M10 series fuzes with that varnish, I dont think that soldiers just open the crate, mount the grenades and start to practice with, the crate came in that way from factory, but I bet somebody, (an Ordnance Man), opened those crates and get ready the grenades for use and for a better sealing, just gave a fast coat of varnish to the cork. With a training period of some weeks or even months for soldiers I think is totally possible. I have seen blue trainers here in Europe, but due to condition I never paid much attention, but now when I find one I will look fast as light at the bottom. Anyway I still betting for a WWII varnish, as you already know from some time ago with our own discussions.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Steve,

buddy, did you read what I had posted?
Also, FYI, I find no references to shellac inside the bodies as of yet. Maybe like you stated Steve, that it could of been varnished?

Hi buddy Mark, yes I read your loooooooong post, :laugh: thanks for taking interest in all these "WW2 trainers" discussions........ and now................
The moment everyone has been waiting for.........are you ready?......... Here it is........I know this will make everyone very happy................... Another of my loooooooong babbling posts......this one could set the record

Mark...The "varnish or shellac", (I'm not sure which was used) I'm speaking about is not on the "inside of the bodies"....It's just a little bit brushed on over the cork on the outside bottom of the grenades.

After the small black powder charges and the corks were installed, the corks were sometimes brushed over with this shellac or varnish. They did this I guess to help seal from moisture. But why?.... if they were to be used immediately like it says in manual? This sealing of the cork seems more like something that would be done for longer term storage, or could be maybe when the grenades were to be used in a humid or wet environment? I've seen many orig blue WW2 bodies, and also have had a few that did not have this varnish/shellac on them.

OK, I got out my FM-23-30 manual like yours and read it again. And yes Mark, they do use the wording "cast iron" to describe grenade bodies, but I really think they are just generalizing about the actual material. When they say "cast iron" I don't think they are not talking about the type cast iron that looks like the type seen on the inside of Eodtek's RFX grenade with the borescope. That RFX type of cast iron is very brittle, and I'm almost certain 100% this type of "cast iron" was never used for real grenade bodies, practice or any others.

I think the metal that our grenades were cast from, was discussed here in the past at some length. And I might need a correction here, but I believe it was the consensus that our pineapples were cast from a special sintered iron or steel alloy if I remember correctly. I think it was a thread about the fragmentation properties of US grenades ??

Some pics for contribute to make more difficult the searching of Steve. Both grenades with original fuzes and still like I bought them long time ago from a good source.

HaHa, Thanks Miguel, you are very helpful. Seems like I've seen those 3 grenades about 100 times now. :flute:
I'm sure your source where you got them from was a very good one, There is no question about that.
But I would like to know, how does anyone know for sure that any blue practice grenade they have, or they have seen in pictures was not a grenade that was reused, and maybe even repainted a few times after WW2, and varnished then? Why are there what looks like to me original blue paint WW2 trainers, with no shellac-varnish?

The only way we could all know that our grenades are "completely original" and untouched since WW2, is to have them all come from "sealed" WW2 dated containers.
I also think the only way to know 100% for sure what the procedures were for preparation and use, and what was supposed to be done "during" WW2 with trainers, is to see this info in writing, the minutes reports or manuals, or maybe some very good photos or drawings.

My two M21's have no shellac/varnish on them, and I feel they are original paint. The containers were not sealed when I got them, but my friend said he opened them when he found them over 40 years ago in California. When opened... they had no fuzes, no corks or shellac/varnish, and no powder charge. But these two containers are different than the third M21 container shown, and mine says "Lot - None" So... were these grenades to be fuzed and readied for use as needed? Were all WW2 M21's shipped like this? There was no grenade inside the third M21 can that was shown, but I sure would liked to have seen what was inside that can.

You have a practice grenade Miguel I saw in one of your pics, that is exactly the same as the first M21 I found. It has the same darker blue color, and is also the exact same reused late WWI type very narrow base body. So I think you also have an "M21" or for sure that you can call it a M21 now, you just do not have a WW2 dated can that says M21 to confirm it 100%.

I personally tend to think the grenades without shellac/varnish are really the ones used during the war. This is just my opinion, and it would be great to see any documentation, some type of proof that the corks were supposed to be sealed with varnish during WW2. This info must be around somewhere. Maybe they did start using shellac/varnish in late war, that is what I'm trying to find out.

Why is there so little solid info known about procedures, usage and production of "blue trainers" in WW2? and especially the "M21"
Seems to me not everything is yet "cut and dried" or "Black & White" with training grenades "during" WWII

This subject in my opinion needs A LOT more research to say the least.

Steve when you get an idea in your mind... You are seeing MKII practice grenades in a lot of variations and always with M10 series fuzes with that varnish, I dont think that soldiers just open the crate, mount the grenades and start to practice with, the crate came in that way from factory, but I bet somebody, (an Ordnance Man), opened those crates and get ready the grenades for use and for a better sealing, just gave a fast coat of varnish to the cork. With a training period of some weeks or even months for soldiers I think is totally possible. I have seen blue trainers here in Europe, but due to condition I never paid much attention, but now when I find one I will look fast as light at the bottom. Anyway I still betting for a WWII varnish, as you already know from some time ago with our own discussions.

Yes Miguel, when I start to research things, I get on a one way track, and keep going until I hopefully find the answers. Sorry my friend if it makes your eyeballs hurt. :stoned: I know thinking can also hurt sometimes : )

You could be correct Miguel, and a instructor or Ord man removed the practice grenades from the wood crate, and prepared them for use, and then handed them out as needed. But from now reading again tonight the FM-23-30 June 15, 1942, Grenades, Basic Field manual" it says that only the amount of grenades to be used were to be readied for use, but does not mention if this only applied to explosive grenades.
The manual also mentions about how the TNT filled grenades came unfuzed, and needed to be readied before use. Do you think that there was always an Ordnance man around to do this fuzing in battle? I think the end users, the soldiers were expected to be able to install fuzes by themselves in the field. I think all the fighting troops would be well trained to install detonating fuzes, so putting a small bag of back powder in a hole and then putting a cork into that hole was something any soldier should be able to do.

It says that a "wrench" for tightening the M5 detonating fuzes after installation was supplied in each box of fuzes. It would be interesting to see what this wrench looked like, I've never seen a photo or drawing of these wrenches.

Also at this time, June '42, they say that the practice charge of black powder in a paper tube was in use. It says...."After the fuze is assembled in the grenade, this charge is inserted into the filling hole, which is closed with a cork", and no mention of shellac or varnish to be painted over corks, just "closed with a cork"

Maybe just in humid areas they applied varnish to seal the corks?
I've had some blue trainers, and know for sure that I've seen many other WW2 blue trainers "without" any traces of the shellac or varnish.

Here is another thing that would be interesting to find out.........
Could maybe the "revised 5-24-44" that is printed on that can of black powder charges and corks that Fragman showed.....maybe this could be the "revision date" when they changed from the "paper tube" black powder practice charge, to the "small cloth bags" with the black powder sewn inside?
Maybe this could this be what the 5-24-44 revision was.... the change from paper tubes.... to the small cloth bag black powder charges?

Also..... there is no mention of the M21 in June '42 manual, so I guess we will need the next manuals that were issued from approx. 6-42 to 6-44, or the 'minutes reports' or other documents from this time period, and this will maybe give some answers to all these unknown issues about practice grenades, and procedures & usage "during" WWII. These manuals or documents should also give an answer to exactly when we started using the nomenclature "practice hand grenade M21"


:dontknow:

 

[hink441]

New guy with some questions. In your picture of the grenade cans it says "loaded 08-44, 12-44". Would a "loaded" M21 grenade come with cork already installed from the manufacturer? And could it be possible that the shellaced corks are from the original manufacturer and not from sebsequent training uses? The loose corks in the can would be for the subsequent training uses. Just asking ?? :tinysmile_hmm_t:

 

[V40]

From my FM 23-30 (1959) it states at that time period that the M21's are now called "limited Standard) and that they had an "Igniter" type fuze with a black powder bag inside for the filler and a cork to seal the bottom. It is not telling me anything else.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

In your picture of the grenade cans it says "loaded 08-44, 12-44". Would a "loaded" M21 grenade come with cork already installed from the manufacturer? :tinysmile_hmm_t:

Hi Hink, I'm not sure, and as of right now, nobody here in the BOCN community knows the answer to this, and the shellac/varnish question.
If they did come with cork installed, this would probably mean they would also have the black powder bag installed inside too, which I personally think they did not. All these details are what I'm trying to find out.

And could it be possible that the shellaced corks are from the original manufacturer and not from sebsequent training uses? Just asking ?? :tinysmile_hmm_t:

At this point, anything is possible. Some type of official documentation for procurement, shipping procedures, and end usage for these mysterious WW2 era M21's is needed for the time period between 6-42 and 9-45.



Here's some pics again of what I have.
From Left to right.......

***1. Crane Co. "C" marked body with threaded filler hole. This obviously was a body intended for use as an explosive real grenade, but pulled from production or stock, and used as trainer instead

***2. Crane Co. "C" marked body that had a threaded hole at one time, and was "reamed or drilled out" possibly to "conform" with the "New Standard" "Hand Grenade Practice M21" sometime during the war. I'm pretty confident the new (new at the time) specs for M21's called for them to have "just a hole" on bottom. If you look closely at the hole on this grenade it's not even close to being a perfectly round hole like the other Crane "C" marked grenade next to it. I have seen other grenades that were also drilled or reamed like this that were not Crane bodies, so it's Not just something that is only found on C bodies.

***3. Crane Co. "C" marked body from one of M21 8-44 date cans. This body I believe was cast with the hole, and was meant to be threaded for filler plug, but was never threaded, thus making it one of the "New Standard" M21 training grenade. This grenade was inside one of the 8-44 dated M21 cans.

***4. Reused "T" marked late WWI narrow base, round shouldered grenade body with threaded filler hole. This grenade was also inside one of the 8-44 dated M21 cans. This is odd. Why a WWI era threaded hole grenade would be in a M21 can is any ones guess, but it was found like this in this in the 1960's. An odd one for sure.

Personally, my guess about this threaded hole WWI "M21" grenade is now I think that the M21 practice grenades never really got off the ground so to say "during" WW2. I think we had more priorities at this time of war than starting production of new practice grenades, and when they started calling practice grenades "M21's" sometime between 41-45, they just continued using any serviceable bodies that were in stock like they always did...... and that's why a WWI body is in a 8-44 date M21 marked can.

This of course is just my theory of how a WWI body could be in a M21 can. As said already, there is very limited official info on this entire WWII M21 subject so far.

As far as I know, the two 8-44 dated "M21" cans I have (with grenades), and the other can shown with 12-44 loading date (no grenade) are the only ones that have been shown here on BOCN.

I will say now, that in my opinion, the M21 grenades have got to be one of the most, if not the most unknown US grenades of WW2. I'm hoping we all will learn more about these WW2 M21's from Gov. documents-minute reports, or manuals that will be found sometime by some other members.
What would be really nice, is to have a few more WWII dated M21's and their cans turn up, to see what the cans are marked, and what type grenade is inside.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

From my FM 23-30 (1959) it states at that time period that the M21's are now called "limited Standard) and that they had an "Igniter" type fuze with a black powder bag inside for the filler and a cork to seal the bottom. It is not telling me anything else.

Hi Mark, thanks for checking your 1959 manual and for info. Yes, I would think by this time 1959, the M21's were classified as limited standard grenades. The TM manuals or other documents from 1942 to 1945 are needed to see what they say.