hi just a quick note here i have been raided and had stuff removed one smoke grenade live but they took it the last time and gave it back but took it this time said illegal to own as said they gave it back last visit ,hand signal flares they say you have to have licence to own but i have been to RNLI, local marina ,yaht club and none have heard of a licence to own or by them and the fact you can just walk in to a yahting shop and by them over the counter. 2 inch smoke mortars they said they could not tell if they had gone off completely they said they would not investigate them and blew them up along with the grenade and flares they also took 12 bullets that were oiled and they said that it would cost to much to strip them so were going to go along the lines that they were live they say it costs them 250 per bullet to strip which i cant see really but they make the rules, i am waiting to see what they are going to do they say 3 to 4 months to find out ah well thats life, they say that they do not recognise oiling of primers as a way to inert bullets that is the hampshire police in england, i asked advice when they came to the house on other things like the owning of law tubes and burns dischargers and it took nearly a month to get back to me for them to say no to both of them on the day they could not give me a answer on them
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raid
- Thread starter noggen666
- Start date
banksy-2k10
Well-Known Member
sorry to hear that hope you get your stuff back :tinysmile_angry2_t:
pointblank0
BOCN Supporter
This has been discussed before. The ownership of smoke grenades. Where do we stand? As far as I can tell, these could be bought legit a few years back, do not reqiuire a licence, so should be no problem. Any thoughts on this?
Big problem with military "L" series smokes and older No.83 grenades. They are classified with a UN number (UN0303) that would require a civilian to be in posession of an explosives certificate. The HSE have taken an initial view on the matter in that they are saying that the classification is a cradle to grave assignment. We have a bizarre scenario whereby the company that supplies the "L" series grenades also sells the identical product onto the commercial civilian market with a classification that does not require a certificate.
If you are found in possession of grenades that can be 100% proven ( usually by lot numbers) were only destined for the military then you will need an explosives certificate. There is also similar issues with Rockets Hand Fired, para Illum, L5 and L12 where once again the military have given them a classification that needs a certificate.
These problems have already tripped up a few commercial contractors in the last year or so requiring police and military intervention to resolve the lawful possession issues.
If you are found in possession of grenades that can be 100% proven ( usually by lot numbers) were only destined for the military then you will need an explosives certificate. There is also similar issues with Rockets Hand Fired, para Illum, L5 and L12 where once again the military have given them a classification that needs a certificate.
These problems have already tripped up a few commercial contractors in the last year or so requiring police and military intervention to resolve the lawful possession issues.
The UN number if for hazardous goods for transport id. I use them all the time. It has nothing to do with needing a cert for tham. For a stupid example a nail gun cartridge and drivers airbag is classed as UN0323 whilst kids caps for toy guns are UN0349.
Explosive certificates
Would disagree Charlie. The UN number has everything to do with needing a certificate for certain pyrotechnics.
Control of Explosives Regs 1991 says that all explosives must be held on certificate except those that appear on Schedule 1 to the Regulations. Military smoke grenades such as the L series and No 83 grenades have UN0303 assigned. UN0303 is not on Schedule 1 so possession requires certification.
You are correct that UN0323 does not require certification as it appears on Schedule 1 to the Regulations. UN0349 does require certification.
Happy to discuss further in the thread or by PM.
Would disagree Charlie. The UN number has everything to do with needing a certificate for certain pyrotechnics.
Control of Explosives Regs 1991 says that all explosives must be held on certificate except those that appear on Schedule 1 to the Regulations. Military smoke grenades such as the L series and No 83 grenades have UN0303 assigned. UN0303 is not on Schedule 1 so possession requires certification.
You are correct that UN0323 does not require certification as it appears on Schedule 1 to the Regulations. UN0349 does require certification.
Happy to discuss further in the thread or by PM.
You are correct.
SpudGun
Well-Known Member
What reason did they give you for the raid ?
So the Police take 12 rds because they "might" not be inert and have them destroyed, what happened to the Police needing proof ??????
Either the rds were inert or live:
If inert they should not have been destroyed as they are legal to have
If live and the OP had an FAC to keep them, then they shouldn't have been destroyed
If live and the OP didn't have an FAC then they shouldn't have been destroyed as they would have been evidence
Using this logic it would seem that the Police could take anything you own and destroy it because it "might" be stolen.
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Well i never matey, you are correct. How ridiclous?!!! The UN codes were invented for international shipping!!!! How an earth they decided to use them for cert classification i will never know. Makes you wonder why they diddnt class them as 0197 SIGNALS, SMOKE, without explosive sound unit though?
You learn something new every day
A UN Number is a designation given to explosives 1.1-1.6 and compatibility (a,b,c etc) groups also used for correct packaging within ESTC packaging. This is a classification only not instigated to license requirement but this criteria is used to as a guide for license in general cases.
The UN number plays a very big part in civilian certification under the Control of Explosives Regs 1991. In the UK as you have identified, ESTC classify on behalf of the MOD and HSE do it for articles entering the civilian market. As I outlined previously we have had a number of scenarios in recent months where identical products from the same manufacturer have been given different UN numbers by ESTC and HSE ( presumably due to packaging). From an enforcement perspective the HSE have taken a view that those articles that can be proven to have gone through the MOD route will retain the MOD classification until used irrespective of whose hands they end up in. It has not been legally challenged, to my knowledge.
pointblank0
BOCN Supporter
Unfortunatly, the Police have to act on information they are fed usually from the public. If there is enough suspicion that there is something wrong, a warrant is issued by a Magistrates court and the Police are expected to carry out the raid as part of their duty. It's nothing personal. They are acting on information received, carrying out raids etc are what they are being paid to do. If raids didn't happen, I suspect there would have been a hell of a lot more terrorist activity over the years in this country.
Ex ATO,
My post was not a dig nor direct slur, but stating a fact about UN Numbers. I agree with you about the system but you and my 33 years experience with explosives safety and the license authority are as you are aware is second to none. If you are there, I hope to meet with you on the 27 Oct at Kineton.
I am sorry, but I don't agree with this sort of thing. Its ridiculous when you can have the police raid your house over some live cartridges....
I mean its pretty bad here in the states with stupid laws, but what you guys have to deal with is way beyond.
These laws are liberal knee jerk reactions and studied Socialist plans to completely disarm the people.
In 1930's and 1940's Germany, the laws were the laws too, it was nothing personal, if there was enough suspicion there was something wrong a warrant was issued, and the Gestapo were expected to carry out the raid as part of their duty. Just because there are laws on the books don't make them right.
Raiding a bunch of guys from the middle east with a apartment full of ANFO is a far cry from raiding a collectors house over some SAA and flares and such....
pointblank0
BOCN Supporter
How do you know what you're dealing with till you have executed the warrant? Where do you draw the line?
Falcon
Well-Known Member
Sadly in today's UK if you are an easy target such as a collector it is guilty until proven innocent. After which your items will have been confiscated and destroyed anyway.
Well, truth be told I have no idea how it works over there, but hereyou have to have some reasonable suspicion, and when filling out the warrant you usually must provide some particulars...ie we will be searchingfor marijuana and/or other drugs, we will be searching for illegal weapons, we will be searching for a suspected ANFO bomb and bomb making materials, we will be searching for illegal 12pdr ammunition.
There usually (as I understand it) can't just be blanket searches for unspecified items...we think they are bad, so we want to search the house.....
How many collectors do you know who have used their collections for nefarious crimes? How many people go through the expense of collecting these items so they can use them illegally?
Assuming you have to show some reasonable suspicion and some sort of actual target you draw the line at a otherwise law abiding citizen who may have (heavens to betsy!) a few live small arms cartridges, or flares. You draw the line at seizing someones hard earned collection that can be worth thousands of dollars (or pounds) and destroying them for no reason.
Lets face it, it is an easy win for them, they get to beat ther chests and yell "look at us we are doing are jobs, another harmless collectors collection has been wiped out"
A lot easier than going after real criminals....
pointblank0
BOCN Supporter
Things obviously work a bit different over in the states. I agree with you that the rules put in place in the UK are harsh (firearms laws), but in most cases, they need to be as we have such an open government style over here and everyone seems to turn on each other. With firearms being very strictly controlled over here, live rounds do get those alarm bells ringing.
The way raids work in the UK usually start from a member of the public or your standard 'grass', who has something against you, either calling the Police or putting in an anom call to crimestoppers, saying something like, "the guy who lives at ???, I have seen him carry some grenades into his house."
A warrant is got from the Magistrates court to search for explosives and related items within reason. If during the search, a live round is foud and is not certificated, then this becomes an offence under the firearms act, the collector is arrested for this offence at the location, which gives the aditional power to search now for ammunition and firearms. The Police don't make the laws, they are paid to uphold them. I agree that the UK government can be very petty, but I think we should spare the coppers a little, a bit like blaming ambulance paramedics for a mate dying of a heart attack, blaming the wrong guys.
Please don't take any of my comments the wrong way, a little debate is what these sites are all about. We can't all agree on everything!
Rob
The way raids work in the UK usually start from a member of the public or your standard 'grass', who has something against you, either calling the Police or putting in an anom call to crimestoppers, saying something like, "the guy who lives at ???, I have seen him carry some grenades into his house."
A warrant is got from the Magistrates court to search for explosives and related items within reason. If during the search, a live round is foud and is not certificated, then this becomes an offence under the firearms act, the collector is arrested for this offence at the location, which gives the aditional power to search now for ammunition and firearms. The Police don't make the laws, they are paid to uphold them. I agree that the UK government can be very petty, but I think we should spare the coppers a little, a bit like blaming ambulance paramedics for a mate dying of a heart attack, blaming the wrong guys.
Please don't take any of my comments the wrong way, a little debate is what these sites are all about. We can't all agree on everything!
Rob