Russian Mills grenade.

[gothica7]

I recently acquired this from Riga in Latvia and its a rather unusual Mills, the like of which I have never seen before.I dont have the base plug and dont think the lever it came with[early slab sided] is correct but ile never know Also came with a brass det anvil and a solid brass centre tube more reminiscent of a 1915 French made No 5.Its also marked 1915 and is of a larger diameter than a standard British tube, also much heavier and dosnt have the central hole lip as if its for a 23/3 or 36.The body seems to be wider than a standard Mills and the side walls are much thinner than usual,Its not cracked or damaged in any way and British tubes are too small to fit. Its threads are not damaged and are all intact.The filler hole is of a most unusual pronounced shape and standard 36 filler screw will not fit. I cannot get to my vernier to check the measurements it being in my barn and wheelchair wont allow. A most unusual Mills grenade that came from the site of a huge battle between the Russian and German armies in 1917, a pivotable battle that probably pushed the Russians out of WW1 and led to the October revolution. It was from the right place and time. I believe its a Russian made version of the No 23/111 Mills grenade and therefore quite a find. Over to the experts.Any Questions please ask.

 

[Ivashkin]

I recently acquired this from Riga in Latvia and its a rather unusual Mills...I believe its a Russian made version of the No 23/111 Mills grenade and therefore quite a find. Over to the experts.Any Questions please ask.

You wrote correct phrases.
I hadn`t be Russian Empire made Mills bomb, it could Latvia or Litva made Mills bomb. They very-very short time ago started to search information about their own-produced munition in 1918-1940 years. Very short information available in internet and people are working in archive.
Aften 1922 year USSR was delaborating grenades (because of bad quality of explosive), and also No 36. I saw names of special instructions for doing this kind of job and have small description in one book (copy I made). But in the same time no information about refilling British grenades by new explosives.

 

[gothica7]

Thank you for confirming my thoughts on this lovely Mills, very grateful to you for your help and wish you luck in you future research.

Andy.

 

[Millsman]

This is from between the wars. Latvian.



Latvia also made the No 16 between the wars.

I always understood that Russia produced a version of the Mills 23 Mk III which was made to different dimensions to the UK made version. Probably made 1918 - 1920 period when British troops were in Russia supporting the White Russians against the Bolshevics.

It's interesting that this poster shows a 23 Mk III base plug and possibly a larger filler plug than normal.

 

[Millsman]

I think we have a bit of a mystery here.

These grenades have always been called 'Russian' but that was before we knew that Mills had been produced in Latvia.

Examining the grenades I have there are differences in size between them.

I bought the following grenade from Millsbomber as being 'Russian' about 5 years ago. I thought the parts might be useful should a more complete but incomplete one come along.



The body (as is) is unmarked as is the base plug.

If you compare it to the 'Russian' Mills 23 Mk III I bought last year you can see differences. I bought this as 'Russian' on the basis it was unmarked on the body or base plug and the dimensions were different from a UK Mills 23 Mk III.



The first 'Russian' grenade is very much like a UK Mills with deep grooves and standard shoulders. The 2nd 'Russian' has finer grooves and much heavier shoulders.

Size comparison:

Base plug diameter - Incomplete Grenade = 32.65mm - 'Complete 'Russian' = 30mm (Compared to a Gibbons No 23 Mk III of 31.6MM)

Shoulders thickness at front - Incomplete Grenade = 6.1mm - 'Complete 'Russian' 7.4mm

Filler Screw Diameter - Incomplete Grenade - 14.94mm (Brass) - 'Complete 'Russian' 13.89mm (Steel)

So both of these grenades differ from the standard Mill 23 Mk III and from each other.



It might be fair to assume they were made in different factories to different local designs, both of which are different to the UK produced Mills.


Anyone got any more info?

 

[Millsman]

Another interesting aspect of Andy's grenade is the brass centre piece. If it's moulded in one piece the only comparable examples are I think the French Dunkirk Mills from 1915. I've never seen another like that.

The date 1915 inside the cup predates the Mills 23 Mk III body by two years and of course is the date when the 180,000 Dunkirk grenades were made. So the question is - Were these surplus CPs sent East or were they local copies, in which case why add 1915 to it?

Again we have the issue of thread sizes as the Dunkirk grenade thread is 31.58mm across the plug threads - so it shouldn't in theory fit Andy's grenade.

Who said Russia was a "Riddle wrapped up in an enigma"? It still is.

 

[Nabob]

I asked for ID recently in this thread:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/101217-Mills-ID

The owner of this Mills did some search on russian sites and, in his words, found a post WW1 document that lists grenades in stores of russia and a comitee deciding what type to manufacture. The Mills was deemed too complicated for manufacture. If there would be a factory already making the Mills, it would probably be stated there. As we know they have chosen the F1. It was and still is THE Hand Grenade.

When I see him I will ask for more info or the source materiel.

Bob

 

[Millsman]

I asked for ID recently in this thread:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/101217-Mills-ID


The Mills was deemed too complicated for manufacture.



Bob

That surprises me. The Russians seemed to make some high precision and complex artillery fuzes before and during the Great War. The Mills is easy by comparison. However I can fully accept that post war they would stop production on the basis the F1 was simpler, so production would simply switch from the Mills to the F1.

John

 

[gothica7]

I have managed to fit the brass centre tube into the body of the Russian Mills and its a perfect fit. not easy with just the 1 working hand. Now need a filler screw and base plug to complete it. Whitworth threaded ones wont work and the base plug will be too small. If anyone can help I would be most grateful. Why there is a 1915 date on the tube is anybodies guess but it seems to be made for the grenade body.Does this mean they were actually making Mills before 1917?


Andy

 

[Millsman]

I have managed to fit the brass centre tube into the body of the Russian Mills and its a perfect fit. not easy with just the 1 working hand. Now need a filler screw and base plug to complete it. Whitworth threaded ones wont work and the base plug will be too small. If anyone can help I would be most grateful.View attachment 157968View attachment 157969 Why there is a 1915 date on the tube is anybodies guess but it seems to be made for the grenade body.Does this mean they were actually making Mills before 1917?


Andy

Andy I'll bring my spare bits with me when I see you in March.

Regarding the 1915 - they certainly weren't making them for that shape body. I'll also bring my Dunkirk brass centre piece for comparison. All the Dunkirk centrepieces I've seen have been unmarked.

 

[gothica7]

Be really grateful John, hope the weather is better than its going to be tomorrow, starting to blow a bit already.


Andy

 

[gothica7]

Finally managed to complete my Russian manufactured No 23 /3 thanks to John Baily an his parts an you can compare its subtle differences with a wonderful example of a 1918 manufactured No 23/3 made by Edwards brothers Birmingham that was once part of Paul Spences collection[thanks for the swap Paul]. Everything is metric on the Russian Mills and the centre tube being cast from brass, I wonder if these did originally come from France being dated 1915. Might have been a seperate contract with the French or perhaps a direct copy. Just need a reinforced gas check made by the Russians, propbly more chance of finding hen's teeth than getting hold of one.Thanks for the parts John.Hope you and family are well.

 

[Millsman]

Cheers Andy. Trundling along. Pleased the parts all worked.

 

[Francesco_Dif]

A mine picture from the Riga army museum

 

[millsbomber]

I think we have a bit of a mystery here.

These grenades have always been called 'Russian' but that was before we knew that Mills had been produced in Latvia.

Examining the grenades I have there are differences in size between them.

I bought the following grenade from Millsbomber as being 'Russian' about 5 years ago. I thought the parts might be useful should a more complete but incomplete one come along.

View attachment 157869

The body (as is) is unmarked as is the base plug.

If you compare it to the 'Russian' Mills 23 Mk III I bought last year you can see differences. I bought this as 'Russian' on the basis it was unmarked on the body or base plug and the dimensions were different from a UK Mills 23 Mk III.

View attachment 157870

The first 'Russian' grenade is very much like a UK Mills with deep grooves and standard shoulders. The 2nd 'Russian' has finer grooves and much heavier shoulders.

Size comparison:

Base plug diameter - Incomplete Grenade = 32.65mm - 'Complete 'Russian' = 30mm (Compared to a Gibbons No 23 Mk III of 31.6MM)

Shoulders thickness at front - Incomplete Grenade = 6.1mm - 'Complete 'Russian' 7.4mm

Filler Screw Diameter - Incomplete Grenade - 14.94mm (Brass) - 'Complete 'Russian' 13.89mm (Steel)

So both of these grenades differ from the standard Mill 23 Mk III and from each other.



It might be fair to assume they were made in different factories to different local designs, both of which are different to the UK produced Mills.


Anyone got any more info?

John your Grenade shown in pictures next to the one i sold you is a reproduction, i think Rene vogt had made some many years ago, dealers brought them and passed them off as originals, the scoundrels.

 

[Millsman]

Hi Dave,

First I've heard of that. If they are reproduction they are bloody good ones.

When did you learn this?

 

[millsbomber]

War and peace show before it moved to folkstone, thy are very good i will contact Rene and see what he can tell me

 

[Millsman]

War and peace show before it moved to folkstone, thy are very good i will contact Rene and see what he can tell me

That would be 2012 or before. I've only ever seen two of these so they certainly didn't flood the market.

 

[millsbomber]

think from memory about 20 was made in Czech republic, he asked me what i thought, well there really good copies just made for re enactors market and was priced at that, i said clean the sand out.

 

[gothica7]

Nice pics bud, mine is just like the one on the right with the very pronounced 'ring' or protrusion around the filler screw. Nothing from a British Mills fitted.



Andy