Satan, Herman & Fritz didn't have boobies?

[LEI-13-HG]

Hello chaps

Just wondering if anyone knows why the Germans seemed to mostly use No. 17/50/Y/Zus on the medium weight HEs (250/500kg) rather than the heavies (Herman/Fritz/Satan/Max)?

I've read plenty of accounts of medium UXBs with all sorts of nasties in them, but the big fellas seem to always have bog standard 15/25/28 etc without even a Zus lurking under them. In fact, I'm struggling to recall any account, published or archive, I've seen that says the heavies had booby traps in.

If this is the case, why is that? Making sure a larger bomb detonated, which would cause more damage, surely must have been better than medium-sized ordnance? And why did there seem to be a higher proportion of heavy duds than medium duds (going on the basis that there was a much greater number of mediums than heavies used)?

Any answers much appreciated.

Austin

 

[satan18]

Hello chaps

Just wondering if anyone knows why the Germans seemed to mostly use No. 17/50/Y/Zus on the medium weight HEs (250/500kg) rather than the heavies (Herman/Fritz/Satan/Max)?

I've read plenty of accounts of medium UXBs with all sorts of nasties in them, but the big fellas seem to always have bog standard 15/25/28 etc without even a Zus lurking under them. In fact, I'm struggling to recall any account, published or archive, I've seen that says the heavies had booby traps in.

If this is the case, why is that? Making sure a larger bomb detonated, which would cause more damage, surely must have been better than medium-sized ordnance? And why did there seem to be a higher proportion of heavy duds than medium duds (going on the basis that there was a much greater number of mediums than heavies used)?

Any answers much appreciated.

Austin

Hi Austin

A very resonable question for which i think the answer will never be found
now.

I can on take a guess that the common 50kg and 250kg were more less costly to produce than the heavies and although many 250s were de fused
many wearnt,and these were laced up with the 17s and 50yfuses just to cause maximum disruption.

Hermans wearnt the total payloads nor were the Satans or Max,so i think they prefered them to go off although many didnt and i am sure that wasnt planned.

With the chance of a 1000 kilo with a type 17 being de fused successfully that is an awfull lot of bomb that hasnt done its job.

Thats my theory anyway.

Best phil

 

[TimG]

Penetration,

If anything larger than 500Kg if didn't detonate on impact, it would in most cases penetrate the earth to a great depth and if it did subsequently detonate the damage would be minimal. It must also be borne in mind that even with a 500Kg impacting with the ground the forces on the clockwork mechanism must have been phenomenal, with the impact force of a 1000Kg or greater, I would be surprised if the mechanism would survive. IIRC 17s were only fitted in the range of 250Kg - 500Kg. Mad or Fuzeman will know more.

Regards

Tim

 

[Fuzeman]

There were i believe 4 cases of a Hermann with a type (17) fuze ,

 

[satan18]

There were i believe 4 cases of a Hermann with a type (17) fuze ,

Were they recorded in the UK Steve

Best phil

 

[Fuzeman]

Hi Phil
Yes all in the UK i believe that in the 1950,s a sewer was being inspected in Lower putney road, when a Hermann was found with a (17) im in the opion ,and its mine only that the armourer made a mistake in fitting this type of fuze.

 

[LEI-13-HG]

Hi Steve

So what do you reckon the reasons are?

Thanks

Austin

 

[Fuzeman]

There were instances of 50Kg bombs with (50)Anti disturbance fuzes being fitted, dropped on airfields on Tip and Run raids , just after lunch , to cause maximum disruption.

 

[waffenamt]

Some very interesting answers here boys,nice one.

I do recall a BD man telling my parents once that a 'Satan' went up with his Officer pal and squad whilst trying to de-fuze it on the Wirral.
My parents met the old boy on holiday a couple of years ago and said i would have loved the wartime defuzing exploits he got up too.

best

waff

 

[Madbomber31]

Hi Steve,

Very interesting steve on the 50 kg with elz 50 in it.
I have never seen or read anything about it, but i'am never to old to learn some more about it.
Do you have anything on paper it will be nice to see???? :nerd:

But back to the question, the bigger bombs SD 1700, SC 1800 and the SB 2500 are to be used against Ships.
If the SC 1800 whas used on land targets it must be set on Direct Action.
The SB 2500 Kg whas first used against land targets but after Dec. 1942 only against ships if filled with Trialen.

L.Dv.4300 and the Muntions-Lexikon on bombs.

 

[Fuzeman]

Hi Jack
Will dig out the papers for you i met the officer who had to clear them.

 

[LEI-13-HG]

Very interesting answers fellas - thanks - but sorry to be pedantic, any specific answers to the original questions:

Just wondering if anyone knows why the Germans seemed to mostly use No. 17/50/Y/Zus on the medium weight HEs (250/500kg) rather than the heavies (Herman/Fritz/Satan/Max)?

and

If this is the case, why is that? Making sure a larger bomb detonated, which would cause more damage, surely must have been better than medium-sized ordnance?

And why did there seem to be a higher proportion of heavy duds than medium duds (going on the basis that there was a much greater number of mediums than heavies used)?

Thanks

 

[Madbomber31]

Thanks Steve.

 

[waffenamt]

Very interesting answers fellas - thanks - but sorry to be pedantic, any specific answers to the original questions:



Thanks

I would have thought Satan and TimG put forward what i would consider very good answers buddy.

#Looks like me and MB were posting at the same time!.please see below then Austin! #

best
waff

 

[Madbomber31]

After looking in the German Luftwaffe Manuals,

Use of the 17's, They where only to be used in the type's SC 250 Kg and SC 500 Kg class I and II bombs.
Use of the ZusZ 40, They where only to be used under the 17A and 17B long delay fuze and only on land targets and only in the SC 250 and SC 500 Kg bombs.
Use of the ELAZ 50 also only to be used in the SC 250 and SC 500 Kg bombs with a 17 fuze or 57 fuze.

L.Dv.4300, L.Dv. 152/17 and L.Dv.152/19

 

[Fuzeman]

Hi Jack
Extract from Danger UXB by Melony Jappy regarding the 50Kg with the (50) fuze

 

[LEI-13-HG]

After looking in the German Luftwaffe Manuals,

Use of the 17's, They where only to be used in the type's SC 250 Kg and SC 500 Kg class I and II bombs.
Use of the ZusZ 40, They where only to be used under the 17A and 17B long delay fuze and only on land targets and only in the SC 250 and SC 500 Kg bombs.
Use of the ELAZ 50 also only to be used in the SC 250 and SC 500 Kg bombs with a 17 fuze or 57 fuze.

L.Dv.4300, L.Dv. 152/17 and L.Dv.152/19

Thanks - so basically the thinking is that these fuzes could not to be used in bombs above 500kg because their mechanisms were too delicate to survive the velocity/impact larger bombs had & the high amount of duds in 1000kg and above was simply because the fuzes had not survived the impact?

 

[Fuzeman]

Hi Andrew
There is no logical reason to suppose that the fuze mechanism was too delicate in larger bombs. it could be just that the heavies were for instance (a sea target )the bomb misses its target and embeds itself in wet clay or mud , then the shock on impact would not be so great.
Just a thought others may have a think its because the fuze had been tampered with! dought,ful as the fuzes were constantly being monitored , in the factory.

 

[TimG]

No, there is an optimum depth of penetration, that through research the Germans found occured 0.1 seconds after impact. The use of a (nuisance) delay on the very heavy bombs would mean the bomb would have penetrated well past it, resulting in a waste of effort and resources. Furthermore there are other considerations such as the ability of the casing, fuze etc., to withstand the impact.

Are there figures that show there were a higher percentage of blinds amongst the heavies than the mediums? It may be just a misconception brought about by all the extra fuss when a heavy was found.

Regards

Tim

 

[blu97]

Hermann with boobies