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this projectile just sold for $1225 on ebay - what is it?
- Thread starter jeff w
- Start date
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Just a question : What is the difference between the above mentioned M 18 round and a 3inch Mark II M2 ?
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Typical description you often see on eBay to attract attention, WW2 Airborne, DDay USMC, Panzer, Stormtrooper, SOE etc etc. A lot of money for a shell and casing that has no original paint and markings, I suppose every one will be using this as a bench mark price for M18 75mm shells. Looking at the shell itself it seems like it's a shrapnel shell.
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I am pretty certain it is not a US projectile. It certainly doesn't go with the M18 casing as by 1942 they had switched to the M48 HE shell.
Scoville type fuze has what looks to be Cyrillic writing. No adapter for shrapnel. I have the same type of fuze made in 1916 for the Russians (A.F.C. LOT C) with aluminum body and brass powder rings. Shell it is in has no step inside for the pusher plate so I assume it is early HE made here for Russia also. Russian 37mm of that period have brass rotating bands, so that would be where my thoughts lead. Cheers, Bruce.
highlandotter
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Early(1880s) Hotchkiss projectiles had brass bands but they were changed to copper or copper alloy.Some Russian 37mm had them up to early 1900s.As Hotchkiss made ammunition for export, you can find brass bands from many countries that bought them on the world market..
I have seen a fairly modern (1980s?) 20 mm aircraft shell fitted with what looked like a brass driving band.
-the projectile has no adapter so it should be not a shrapnel shell
-it is missing a bourrelet which every shell should have
-no stamps on projectile body
-a never seen driving band arrangement
-a WW1 fuze in combination with a 2nd WW brass case
-obviously brass material instead of copper for driving bands
-a very smooth surface without lathe marks (polished after turning process?)
Is it a real shell or just a good but wrong lathe work?
-it is missing a bourrelet which every shell should have
-no stamps on projectile body
-a never seen driving band arrangement
-a WW1 fuze in combination with a 2nd WW brass case
-obviously brass material instead of copper for driving bands
-a very smooth surface without lathe marks (polished after turning process?)
Is it a real shell or just a good but wrong lathe work?
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I am with Alpini on this. The projectile looks like something that has been made up. Yes there were brass driving bands on early projectiles but this band configuration just doesn't look right.
D
The "projectile" is a WW1 period presentation / award piece for manufacturing, production, service???
Companies in the U.S. had contracts to produce ordnance for other countries, including Russia, during WW1 and presentation / award "projectiles" exist from this time frame.
What puzzles me are the two brass "driving bands."
Companies in the U.S. had contracts to produce ordnance for other countries, including Russia, during WW1 and presentation / award "projectiles" exist from this time frame.
What puzzles me are the two brass "driving bands."
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
I would like to tell you a story about this 3 inch Mark II M2. About 15 years ago, my neighbor from across the road, at the time, told me as follows: Shortly before the end of WW2, our town was occupied by US troops.I live in a hilly aerea. In one of the side valleys, about 3 miles away, there were still some german troops resisting. So, every morning, I assume after breakfeast, a US tank would come rumbling down the hill,make a sharp left turn and drive in between 2 old houses into the garden of my former neighbours fathers house. This was a very good spot, protected from sight nearly all around by old houses, but from there, at the bottom of the hill, you could sight and shoot into that side valley. From further up the hill this was not possible. On and off this tank would fire a round into the village still occupied by some german troops. In the late afternoon the tank would depart again, to come back by next morning. In the evening, every day, before dark, a US truck would come by to collect the empty brass casings. At that time brass was a high value metal. One day the truck did not come, so the father of my neighbor fetched the brass casings and deposited them in his cellar. The old houses here are built with hewn rock-stone and the cellarwa
lls traditionally were whitewashed inside with chalk. A good householder renews this whitewash every few years. Over 6 decades the shellcasings still laying there, were covered liberally with chalk-whitewash. I gave these about a dozen casings to somebody I knew, to clean by sandblasting. Instead of sand they used tiny steelballs and ruined the casings completely. I just kept one for nostalgic reasons. See the attached photo of the bottom. With none of the casings did I see a firingpin impression. Were these electric caps ?
With kind regards,
Bellifortis.
lls traditionally were whitewashed inside with chalk. A good householder renews this whitewash every few years. Over 6 decades the shellcasings still laying there, were covered liberally with chalk-whitewash. I gave these about a dozen casings to somebody I knew, to clean by sandblasting. Instead of sand they used tiny steelballs and ruined the casings completely. I just kept one for nostalgic reasons. See the attached photo of the bottom. With none of the casings did I see a firingpin impression. Were these electric caps ?With kind regards,
Bellifortis.
Bellifortis,
In regards to your primer question. As artillery became more powerful with greater pressures in the guns, the U.S. went to a two-stage primer. The centermost piece in the primer that can be seen, will actually move forward and back. It has a firing pin shaped protrusion that faces forward on the inside. The steel firing pin in the breech mechanism of the gun travels forward upon firing and hits that center piece in the primer. The floating piece travels forward and hits a percussion primer which ignites the propelling charge. The floating piece is a safety, to prevent any hot gasses from escaping from a possibly pierced primer. If gasses escape the pierced percussion primer, they push the floating piece rearward, sealing that passage and preventing any leakage.
In regards to your primer question. As artillery became more powerful with greater pressures in the guns, the U.S. went to a two-stage primer. The centermost piece in the primer that can be seen, will actually move forward and back. It has a firing pin shaped protrusion that faces forward on the inside. The steel firing pin in the breech mechanism of the gun travels forward upon firing and hits that center piece in the primer. The floating piece travels forward and hits a percussion primer which ignites the propelling charge. The floating piece is a safety, to prevent any hot gasses from escaping from a possibly pierced primer. If gasses escape the pierced percussion primer, they push the floating piece rearward, sealing that passage and preventing any leakage.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your most informative answer. Again I learned something. It's always nice to listen to people who know what they are talking about. How far (mm) will the firing pin push the centerpiece inside and will it expand and lock upon firing ? I expect that the firing pin, in this case, will be of larger dia. and to have a rather blunt shaped tip, compared with a more traditional, earlier design.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
as an addition to Hazords words: pictures of an US primer and it's roots an original French primer. The firing pin of the gun was simply round and flat shaped. I think the firing pin of such a gun would have lasted much longer then a conventional firing pin as the wear shifted from the guns firing pin into the primers firing pin. In most cases ~3 mm round impressions are slightly visible on such primers after firing and sometimes the primers "firing pin" is loose and rattles.
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I would have thought the round itself was made up also, what with the squared off driving bands, but the driving bands on the 37mm's I'd mentioned earlier are just as square and protruding by scale. Also, the U.S. made one that I have is sans bourrelet, also. The fuze on mine has a slight taper where it screws in that matches a corresponding taper on the projectile. I think I see that in the eBay projo also. Or, it could be good matching machining done for, as y ' all mentioned, a presentation piece. Some body had deep pockets for a reason, though. Unless they were really gullible. Cheers, Bruce.
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