What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

UK firearms law: Here we go, again

L

Listy

Well-Known Member
The Home Office are attempting to tackle the recent 33% rise in firearms offences. They are currently holding a consultation via a survey. The page with all associated documents on it is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/firearms-safety

Of note for us lot is the rules on ammo. It appears that despite primers and powder being strictly controlled, they now want to tackle other component parts of ammo such as cases and projectiles. Now, to be fair they are talking about there needing to be a standard of evidence to prove that there is intent to manufacture the rounds. But this of course means that our collections would be liable to the tender mercies of a well written law. If it's badly written, it could at a stroke, make us all very illegal.

At the bottom of the above link is an online survey that allows you to put forth your feelings. I doubt it'll do much good, but maybe it will. I'd also get writing to your MP.
 
every body should read the items in the link. It is interesting how our tax £ are spent. There is evidence that the thought process is ' if we make it more illegal then criminals will obey the law' behind the proposals. Not the fact that hitherto law abiding citizens will possibly become criminals or will have to forgo their interests. If nasty kids shoot cats with airguns then having them licenced will make so little a difference as to make the cost and effort to tax payers or legitimate gun owners likely to make them want to kill cats (which by the way are a real threat to wild life). The nasty kids will learn how to make and use catapults then we will eventually need a licence to buy elastic. The point about primers either loose or in cases is a serious one to fellow collectors, the onus on you will be to proove beyond reasonable doubt that you have no criminal intent in your possessing primed cases even if the primer has been inerted but not struck. Any knife and bayonet collectors out their should also read up on the latest Violent Crime reduction bill before it into force as it makes it illegal to possess certain blades, certain handguns that were classed as obsolete.
 
I've read the link and written to the home office rep listed to ask if clarification can be or is likely to be made regarding collections (historical or modern) of ordnance, and where the proposals are likely to include us and in what capacity.
I collect First war heavy howitzer shells, and reading the impact assessment, it seems clear that the intention of the home office is to reduce/ restrict the possession of all ammunition components, rather than just primers and powders, to prevent the criminal fraternity from making their own rounds. I get that. But, equally, I fail to see how being in possession of a 9.2" WW1 projectile might indicate criminal intention. I'm sure any judge worth his salt would frown at any CPS allegation that I might have the means of potentially robbing a bank should I happen to possess a 9.2" calibre howitzer, or trundling down the high street with a 60Pdr gun and inert shells in the hope of mugging some poor unfortunate.
Its plain to see from members on this site that people here know their stuff and are passionate about their chosen subject, and can be identified as legit collectors. Just my opinion.
I'm hoping common sense will prevail as far as viewing collectors are concerned.
 
starshell said:
I've read the link and written to the home office rep listed to ask if clarification can be or is likely to be made regarding collections (historical or modern) of ordnance, and where the proposals are likely to include us and in what capacity.
I collect First war heavy howitzer shells, and reading the impact assessment, it seems clear that the intention of the home office is to reduce/ restrict the possession of all ammunition components, rather than just primers and powders, to prevent the criminal fraternity from making their own rounds. I get that. But, equally, I fail to see how being in possession of a 9.2" WW1 projectile might indicate criminal intention. I'm sure any judge worth his salt would frown at any CPS allegation that I might have the means of potentially robbing a bank should I happen to possess a 9.2" calibre howitzer, or trundling down the high street with a 60Pdr gun and inert shells in the hope of mugging some poor unfortunate.
Its plain to see from members on this site that people here know their stuff and are passionate about their chosen subject, and can be identified as legit collectors. Just my opinion.
I'm hoping common sense will prevail as far as viewing collectors are concerned.
Click to expand...

You say that, but they're also talking about restricting High Muzzle-Energy rifles because of the risk of criminals obtaining them. These are weapons such as the bolt action version of the Barret .50 cal. Generally the rifles are 5ft in length and 10-16kg. Which is absolutely ideal for knocking over the local post office or a drive by on an enemy...?
 
Agreed, but portable weapons and large shells are worlds apart in terms of legislation, that's my opinion only. I'm sure govt bods don't agree with that.
Sadly, this government is too lazy or incompetant to even try to distinguish between either so opt for a blanket ban on anything remotely connected to firearms, explosives, etc.
For a country with the strictest gun laws on the books, you've got to wonder where this'll end.
 
If your case gets to a judge worth his salt you've lost because that will happen after your door has been bashed in and your collection confiscated.
 
It'll end pretty much like any other countries 'window dressing' of legal firearms legislation.
Only the criminals will have firearms, making the world that much safer (sarc!)
 
starshell said:
For a country with the strictest gun laws on the books, you've got to wonder where this'll end.
Click to expand...

You have the strictest firearm laws? Well come to the Netherlands and you'll find out that laws in the UK are made to the same standard as in the Netherlands; with disinformation, government reports that take assumptions for thruth, and politicians that want to score points easily with the voters. What easier target than (legalized) colletors, in general law abiding citizens with a hobby, but easy targets for those who want to score.
The average criminal laughs his head off, as the government is making their life more safe.
By the way, the law forbidding handguns in the UK was a big succes, since that time murders with guns have completely stopped, exept for the fact that the knife attacks - loosely called bagging Medics reveal humiliating new trend in gang knife attacks | Daily Mail Online - have replaced it by many times.
The thing that annoys me most is that every time the government wants to corner criminals, the law abiding citizen is targeted by politicians and lawmakers, whom must know very well that they are on the wrong track, but press through anyway.
 
Last edited:
starshell said:
Agreed, but portable weapons and large shells are worlds apart in terms of legislation, that's my opinion only. I'm sure govt bods don't agree with that.
Sadly, this government is too lazy or incompetant to even try to distinguish between either so opt for a blanket ban on anything remotely connected to firearms, explosives, etc.
For a country with the strictest gun laws on the books, you've got to wonder where this'll end.
Click to expand...

Actually I don't believe we've got the strictest rules in the world. I think that's just internet and politician generated myth. UK firearms law is in this weird place, where it is simultaneously very well written and very badly written. I suspect you can obtain almost any firearm, legally, as long as you can prove, and argue that you have good reason to own it, and that it will not pose a threat to the public.

Take my own area of expertise, spigot weapons. Usually in HO guidance spigot weapons are given as exceptions. However, a PIAT falls foul of Section 5 legislation due to one clause about it being a stabilised projectile. So to own (and fire one) you'd need to present a case to the HO to obtain it under a Sec5 exemption, arguing the above points. I believe I could do it TBH. But at current I lack the funds to get everything in place.
So yeah, you can own anything, but it'll require a certain amount of work.
 
Just as I wrote my post yesterday, the President of the Czech Republic signed a new gun law.
The people at the Ministry of Interior drafted a reasonable law which was miraculously not butchered and distorted by the members of Parliament.
It implements the stupid and technically incorrect EU legislature only in the most necessary way.

For ammo collectors nothing changes, inert ammunition can be held by any sane person older than 18. :)

Bob
 
Surely if being legal to possess inert components for all time up to present day.Any change should be compensated.As when the pistol ban came into place.If anyone has live items without relevant licence and storage security then more fool them.Bringing components or complete
items into the area for licensing may not be an all bad thing,as collectors could apply for the licence and have peace of mind.This way
are interest could continue and every one would know where they stand.Also museums private or public owned would be affected by
any law changes.we are talking about inert items.There is already provision in place to hold live small caliber ammunition for
collection purposes on a firearm certificate.Lets hope if any changes happen,they are clear and not complicated.
 
mach1bang said:
Surely if being legal to possess inert components for all time up to present day.Any change should be compensated.As when the pistol ban came into place.If anyone has live items without relevant licence and storage security then more fool them.Bringing components or complete
items into the area for licensing may not be an all bad thing,as collectors could apply for the licence and have peace of mind.This way
are interest could continue and every one would know where they stand.Also museums private or public owned would be affected by
any law changes.we are talking about inert items.There is already provision in place to hold live small caliber ammunition for
collection purposes on a firearm certificate.Lets hope if any changes happen,they are clear and not complicated.
Click to expand...

Lets break this down a bit.

First all museums get access to claim a free FAC, so they're fine.

As to applying for an FAC to hold your collection. Well that'll be £90 please every few years, oh and you'll need to install a gun safe, and take a day off work to meet the FEO. Next you'll need a letter from your GP, which can be whatever the GP says it is (I've seen numbers in excess of £100 mentioned by some people).

Now the way FAC's work, that'll be an extra £20 every time you want to add an item to your collection, as well as having to send off the variation form and awaiting processing and permission (got help if you live in TVP or the Met's area!).

All to add a round to your collection.

Edit:
I forgot to add, that's only for SAA. If it's large calibre you collect, well that may well fall as a section 5 depending on how well the law is worded. Sec5 is REALLY unpleasant.
 
Last edited:
Listy said:
Lets break this down a bit.

First all museums get access to claim a free FAC, so they're fine.

As to applying for an FAC to hold your collection. Well that'll be £90 please every few years, oh and you'll need to install a gun safe, and take a day off work to meet the FEO. Next you'll need a letter from your GP, which can be whatever the GP says it is (I've seen numbers in excess of £100 mentioned by some people).

Now the way FAC's work, that'll be an extra £20 every time you want to add an item to your collection, as well as having to send off the variation form and awaiting processing and permission (got help if you live in TVP or the Met's area!).

All to add a round to your collection.
Click to expand...

Hi Listy,
I partly agree.
As we are talking about inert components etc.I was meaning a license to hold such items,that's all.with maybe if necessary a 5 year renewal
as FAC.But as (inert items)security would not be the same as with working firearms,or live ammo.No variations for adding items,just
permission to hold with peace of mind.My comments on live ammo are already in place.I don't want things to go down this road
but it's better than losing the ability to study and collect altogether.It may make us look responsible holders,rather than politically
incorrect or worse,as some people may view are hobby/interest.
For FAC holders,a doctors letter is not needed,but a tick on a form to allow access to medical record,in case of mental health issues.
But again that's for holding working firearms.

There are licenses issued for all sorts of things,it doesn't have to be expensive or a big deal.(but I do understand that it may leave
space for tightening up in the future).

Does anyone on here want to lose there collection for the sake of a license?

Lets hope no changes happen.
 
mach1bang said:
Hi Listy,
I partly agree.
As we are talking about inert components etc.I was meaning a license to hold such items,that's all.with maybe if necessary a 5 year renewal
as FAC.But as (inert items)security would not be the same as with working firearms,or live ammo.No variations for adding items,just
permission to hold with peace of mind.My comments on live ammo are already in place.I don't want things to go down this road
but it's better than losing the ability to study and collect altogether.It may make us look responsible holders,rather than politically
incorrect or worse,as some people may view are hobby/interest.
For FAC holders,a doctors letter is not needed,but a tick on a form to allow access to medical record,in case of mental health issues.
But again that's for holding working firearms.

There are licenses issued for all sorts of things,it doesn't have to be expensive or a big deal.(but I do understand that it may leave
space for tightening up in the future).

Does anyone on here want to lose there collection for the sake of a license?

Lets hope no changes happen.
Click to expand...


Problem here is there's no mention in the costs part of a new licencing system. They're assuming it is rolled into the standard FLU. Ammo must go onto a FAC. To obtain a FAC, or to alter the ammo on it, you go through what I pointed out above.

As to the requirement for the medical letter, it depends where you live, under which force. Having worked in an FLU, I can only say it's a good idea. We had a few cases where we wrote to the GP, got no response in the vetting stage, so issued the licence. Only to get a panicked letter/phone call/email from the GP a few days later. At which point we had to task the ARV to go recover the licence. We also had a particularly unpleasant Murder/Suicide which may have been prevented with a bit of help from the GP's.
The BMA was working hard to avoid any interaction with the police. I thought we were all in this to save lives! A lot of GP's would act to save lives, but several were complete asses. When they sent the form letter 'Sorry, we will not deal with you as we're contentious Objectors' you know you were dealing with prize one cocks. The most common response was 'We've received your request. We shall ask them for a fee, and get back t you when it is paid.' The Applicant never paid up and they never got back to us. Hence why I fully support the requirement for a GP's letter at the stage of the initial application.

One force I was aware of was 3 months behind with its weapon notifications, and transfers from one holder to another. Now look at adding the normal routine for exchanging ammo as well. They're going to implode. It's laughable to assume the HO assessment is going to require just 15 minutes of each FEO's time. As it appears they've not really considered us collectors.
 
my concern is that it is a lot of cost and effort licensing things that are already possessed, not everyone will comply, huge number of unlicensed shotguns around from when they were put on ticket etc. Only the law abiding will comply. Is the cost and effort worth it? Jobs for the Boys? lets look like we care? as to medical letter requirements and security differing thru' the country why? because each police force decides what it wants. Ammunition quantities allowed are being reduced in Cambs. Beds. & Herts. (now all one authority), to typically 160 rds in any CF type. C,B &H have a medical form you take to the Doc and locally they charge £40 and turn it round back to you in 5 working days. Its inconveinient and a cost to add to your hobby but if you want to keep at it than grin and bear it if not give up now.
 
It would seem they are concerned about shot gun and small arms ammunition,which are readily reloaded.Not artillery ammunition etc.
But I take the point,it needs to be clear.It also states that to be an offence,intent for illegal reloading has to be proven.
Inert items held as a collection surely do not show intent.one would hope common sense will prevail.
 
mach1bang said:
It would seem they are concerned about shot gun and small arms ammunition,which are readily reloaded.Not artillery ammunition etc.
But I take the point,it needs to be clear.It also states that to be an offence,intent for illegal reloading has to be proven.
Inert items held as a collection surely do not show intent.one would hope common sense will prevail.
Click to expand...

Yes, thank god for common sense, from the home office when it comes to drafting laws...
**looks at the VCR act**

Bugger.
 
Might as well add,info for those who do not have a FAC.In the UK
you do not need a variation each time you buy sell or exchange live ammo,the seller just writes it on the recepients certificate
at no cost.(Also there is no charge for an ammunition variation),only firearms.A variation is only necessary to alter what type,
caliber,or quantity of ammunition to be held.A FAC lasts for five years.
Just thought I would clarify for those interested.
A collectors certificate can bring peace of mind,as if any querys,one has it in black and white to show.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top