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Unknown Cartiridge?

Pea Shooter

Pea Shooter

Well-Known Member
A while back I got a box of WWI rounds. In the box was this round that is in the middle of the picture. The first round is a British WWII 303. The middle round is unknown. The third round is a US WWII 30.06. I put the other two rounds in there for comparison. The 303 is 3 1/16 inches tall. the unknown round is 2 15/16 inches tall. The 30.06 is 3 5/16 inches tall. Can anyone tell me what the middle round is? Thank you, VaughnIMG_0071.jpgIMG_0059.jpg
 
Your 8x56R was made at Czespel Arsenal, Budapest.

The .303 inch you show was an Incendiary B Mark VIIz made at ROF Spennymoor, but it has the wrong bullet. The bullet envelope should be GMCS and have a blue tip without a coloured neck seal. The bullet looks French or more likely Japanese to me.

Regards
TonyE
 
I would agree with TonyE on the .303" bullet being a Japanese 7.7 rimmed,also the 'brass' colour of this bullet and the purple neck band indicate this is an explosive bullet..be very carefull if this projectile has not been inerted,These Japanese explosive bullets are very unstable and sensitive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.7×58mm_Arisaka



Cheers
Tony
 
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Tony, I think you might be mistaken about this being an 'explosive' bullet. Explosive rounds do indeed have a purple casemouth seal but they also have a very distinct flattened tip. I'm with both Tonys on it being Japanese but I'd suggest its an armour piercing bullet. AP should be identified by a black seal but this often looks more purple than black - and they have a brass bullet.
Here are photos of each;

Japan7.jpg


Japan5.jpg


Jim
 
Ahh..thanks Jim,it did look purple to me,probably my eyes telling me porkies again:tinysmile_hmm_t:

Cheers
Tony
 
Thank you EOD and TonyE for identifying the round.
On the other round, maybe the British made the round for the Japanese. Japanese rounds aren't usually head stamp marked. Below is an incendiary Japanese 7.7 round. It is hard to tell if the ring is purple or black due to the age. Also, here is the clip that the British (?) rounds were in. Thanks you, VaughnIMG_0078.jpgIMG_0074.jpg
 

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The .303 was originally an incendiary round. This is indicated by the "B" in the headstamp. The incendiary projectiles were probably pulled and replaced with bullets from broken down Japanese 7.7 rounds. This made the ammunition more suitable for civilian use. This may have been done commercially or by a home reloader in his garage.

Millions of rounds of nw condition Japanese 7.7 Semi rimmed were imported into the USA from China in I believe the 1980s, so there would have been plenty of bullets available.
 
Pea Shooter said:
Thank you EOD and TonyE for identifying the round.
On the other round, maybe the British made the round for the Japanese. Japanese rounds aren't usually head stamp marked. Below is an incendiary Japanese 7.7 round. It is hard to tell if the ring is purple or black due to the age. Also, here is the clip that the British (?) rounds were in. Thanks you, VaughnView attachment 74705View attachment 74706
Click to expand...

Britain making ammunition for Japan in 1942? Have a read of your history books please!

Japan had purchased .303 inch ammunition from Kynoch in the 1920s which became the basis of their own manufacture of 7.7mm Rimmed for the IJN Type 89 Lewis guns. Japan commenced production of 7.7mm Rimmed around 1928/29 and it was all headstamped up until the end of 1943.

Regards
TonyE
 
Pea Shooter, it would be helpful if you could clarify if these bullets are indeed brass or tarnished cupro-nickel, its difficult to be certain from your photograph. Is the bullet magnetic? You obviously have more than one so perhaps you could try pulling the round with the neck crack. Maybe you could then weigh the bullet? A bit more information would make it a lot easier to identify your rounds correctly.
Jim
 
Jim,
are the neck colours the same for 7.7mm rimmed and 7.7mm semi rimmed?,I just noticed your pics are of semi rimmed are rimmed the same?


Tony
 
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A good point Tony but 7.7mm Rimmed cartridges are identified by primer annulus colour and do not have any casemouth colouring. The 7.7mm Rimmed 'Explosive Incendiary' bullet again has a distinctive flat tip but in this calibre it has a cupro-nickel (silver coloured) jacket rather than the gilding metal (copper coloured) jacket of the 7.7mm Semi-rimmed.
I'm sort of wondering now if these .303 reloads might have been the product of post war China. I have a couple of variations of PRC 7.7mm Semi-rimmed rounds made from captured Japanese stock. These have red primers and bright green casemouth seals and are quite well documented as being Chinese but perhaps they produced these 7.7mm Rimmed as well....just a thought.
Jim
 
Tony - Primer annulus colours for the Imperial Japanese Navy 7.7mm Rimmed were:
Ball - Black
AP - White
Tracer - Red
Incendiary - Green
Incendiary (Flat tipped explosive) - Purple.

For the army Type 89 and Type 92 Semi-Rimmed and Type 97 and Type 99 Rimless the case mouth colours were:
Ball - Pink
AP Type 92 - Black
Incendiary Type 92 - Magenta
Incendiary Ma 101 (explosive) - Purple
Tracer - Green

Regards
TonyE
 
Many thanks Jim and TonyE,I suppose one other thing that may or may not support the post war reload idea is that I have seen post war Chinese 7.62x54R and 7.62x39mm bullets that are the same brass colour...but personally I feel the example shown above is just a mismatch twixed case and bullet.

Cheers
Tony
 
I agree Tony. Whilst it is always possible, I have never come across anything that indicates China was supplied with British B Mark VII ammunition. Also why replace a perfectly good incendiary bullet?

Cheers
TonyE
 
TonyE said:
Also why replace a perfectly good incendiary bullet?
Click to expand...

I see that Pea Shooter is in California where incendiry rounds are banned. I have also seen .303 tracer reloaded with ball or soft-point hunting bullets to "civilianise" the rounds. Perhaps the .303 with Japanese bullets were sold by a loading company in CA.
 
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