US 75MM M64 Chemical Shell

[Dunkbfg]

See attached. Came off the production line and was never issued into service.

Want to de-rust and re-paint the attached unless anyone has a strong argument to leave it alone

I tend to de-rust in a bath of molasses and water (50/50) over a week or so.

Any suggestions for good colour match to the grey, and what options for filler (likely go for WP SMOKE....)?

Fuze appears to be M48 not the M57 that it should have....

Duncan.

 

[M8owner]

When I first started collecting, I would remove the rust and repaint something like this. I now believe that is the worst possible thing to do. Even a small amount of original paint is far better than the most beautiful new paint job - to me. I have come to believe that new paint is only applied to hide body filler. I will no longer buy repainted items. I believe it will retain its value and collector appeal if you remove the rust, then leave it alone.

Just my opinion. It is worth what you paid for it.

 

[Dunkbfg]

When I use the molasses bath it tends to attack the paint - what would be a better method to remove the rust without hurting the paint?
If you have a better looking/ re-painted, but not filled M64 I might be up for a trade.......

 

[Dunkbfg]

Went back in the forum and seems Evapo-Rust overnight would be the way to go....

 

[M8owner]

I have found that Naval jelly works well. Leave it on for a few minutes, then rinse it well with water. Then, of course, dry it well and lubricate with a thin coat of grease.

I only have this one example of the M64. Of course, I am displaying it next to two repainted shells.

 

[Slick]

My trick of the trade. I've found this stuff to be very effective with the plus that it leaves any existing paint intact. Leaves a gray residue that buffs off with 4-0 steel wool.


Bigger plus, you don't have to wear a HAZMAT suit when using it.

 

[sksvlad]

Rick,
Would this work on small steel cartridges? How about on green crudded brass?

 

[Slick]

Rick,
Would this work on small steel cartridges? How about on green crudded brass?

Have only ever used it on big projectiles and a mortar round. "Active ingredient" is phosphoric acid, so, it'd probably do something. A test, first, would be in order, especially on a rare piece.

 

[Dunkbfg]

I have found that Naval jelly works well. Leave it on for a few minutes, then rinse it well with water. Then, of course, dry it well and lubricate with a thin coat of grease.

I only have this one example of the M64. Of course, I am displaying it next to two repainted shells.
View attachment 118932

Is that the original paint? A lot more blue/ grey than I'd of thought. POA 9 45 shell as well - must of shut the factory and everyone took the last production run!

 

[M8owner]

I removed the Peerless decal from it, so the paint is original.

 

[Dunkbfg]

My trick of the trade. I've found this stuff to be very effective with the plus that it leaves any existing paint intact. Leaves a gray residue that buffs off with 4-0 steel wool.
View attachment 118933View attachment 118934

Bigger plus, you don't have to wear a HAZMAT suit when using it.

So I went to Lowes, as they're my closest store - found this stuff and have the shells soaking. As a side project while I'm waiting on the rust treatment I thought I'd try it on some really filthy brass - Wow! After brushing the brass with a paint brush and a little of this stuff, after just 20-30 seconds it had already done its job! A little dull residue left which came off with super fine steel wool. Now have glistening brass - appreciate not everyone's thing

 

[917601]

When I first started collecting, I would remove the rust and repaint something like this. I now believe that is the worst possible thing to do. Even a small amount of original paint is far better than the most beautiful new paint job - to me. I have come to believe that new paint is only applied to hide body filler. I will no longer buy repainted items. I believe it will retain its value and collector appeal if you remove the rust, then leave it alone.

Just my opinion. It is worth what you paid for it.

Agreed for the most part. Before repainting anything I now use Ospho, a phosphoric acid primer rust remover and conversion chemical. After using the stuff, I reevaluate. I was going to repaint this M121A1 VX shell, but decided it's historic background ( used to test US chemical weapons demill procedures) was best left in it's natural state. The only items I now repaint are ones that are in a state of advanced corrosion, duplicate pieces or low value pieces.

 

[US-Subs]

I was going to repaint this M121A1 VX shell, but decided it's historic background ( used to test US chemical weapons demill procedures) was best left in it's natural state.

Are you certain of the identification of your projectile? It is possible that you have an M121, but based upon the background you have given, not likely.

The Chemical weapons convention mandates the destruction of all CW. The destruction follows a specific schedule for different types of weapons. One of the first things that had to be destroyed was empty weapons which were specifically designed for use as CW. This included M121, etc. The US noted that it would need test projectiles for its different destruction technologies, many of which had not yet been developed in 1997 when the treaty went into effect. As the empties needed to be destroyed first, and making new weapons was forbidden, special permission was granted to modify non-CW into shapes and construction which could not be used as CW, but would work as test pieces through the destruction process.

These pieces were designated as SETH munitions (simulation equipment test hardware). The were also often marked with the munition designation that they were intended to simulate - i.e. M121. In addition they have the bronze paint, which, unlike the standard munitions identifies that it is not intended to be used with a delivery system. The photos that you have shared are also typical of a SETH in that the burster tube is not standard to a normal M121.

The majority of ordnance I've seen in the past 10 years identified as CW have in fact been SETH pieces. Unfortunately most folks do not know the history or identification features and many are mistaken or deceived. The exception to this is the dual use items that could have been either mustard or WP loaded. This included M2 4.2" mortars, M64 75mm, M60 105mm and M110 155mm. As they could be either smoke or CW the empties did not need to be destroyed.

The SETH are collectible and have a place in history in their own right. But they are not CW.

 

[jeff w]

So I went to Lowes, as they're my closest store - found this stuff and have the shells soaking. As a side project while I'm waiting on the rust treatment I thought I'd try it on some really filthy brass - Wow! After brushing the brass with a paint brush and a little of this stuff, after just 20-30 seconds it had already done its job! A little dull residue left which came off with super fine steel wool. Now have glistening brass - appreciate not everyone's thing

Would be great to see a before and after picture with this stuff (I usually prefer my brass shiny too).

 

[Dunkbfg]

Would be great to see a before and after picture with this stuff (I usually prefer my brass shiny too).

3 x Fuzes and 75mm casing cleaned picture. Only before picture I had was the M48 fuze.

 

[917601]

US Subs, Correct, thanks for the details. As the pictures I posted show it to be a "SETH" ( thanks for the correct terminology), I still call it my Chem weapons shell. The stencil on the body says M121A1, interesting , I found markings engraved on the body, " Lot JBC 1-31-1945 155MM M101" and above it longitude spanwise " U386". I suspect it was manufactured from a 1945 155MM M101 projo (?) specifically for the demil project, as the pictures show a robot device at Anniston handling the same shell while testing the demil procedure. In any case, a fascinating piece of history and one of my " show pieces" at the events I attend....getting tired of lugging the 100 lb plus projectile around, but it draws the crowds. I will use the info you provided, as my questions about the shell to Anniston was met with a very general statement by the Anniston Public Affairs office.

 

[US-Subs]

Google SETH projectile and you may find some more, the offices (DTRA etc) sometimes put more out online than they will give over the phone.

 

[917601]

Google SETH projectile and you may find some more, the offices (DTRA etc) sometimes put more out online than they will give over the phone.

I could not find any detailed information on the SETH projectiles, in other words, nothing mentioning how the SETH projectiles were manufactured. What I do know, is the SETH projo I have is dated 1945 and marked M101. Would I be correct in assuming they took a WW2 155mm HE ( M101 was the standard 155mm HE round) machined, altered, and filled with glycol to test their demill procedure? One website stated they " manufactured" a couple hundred 155mm rounds for testing and training the operators who would perform the work.Makes sense to me.

 

[US-Subs]

The ordnance used (date, model, etc.) was not a requirement, they apparently would determine that they needed a quantity (few hundred), see what was available empty in depot storage and go from there. Documentation was then submitted identifying the modification, quantity, location and intended use. I rarely did destruction missions for the stockpiled stuff and so paid very little attention at the time. I've got copies of some paperwork on discussions, approvals, etc, but nothing technical. Once you are used to them however, it is easy to tell them when you see them. They (SETH) were done for all the projos (sizes and types), the rockets, mines, and even the CAIS kits. I don't remember ever seeing anything on SETH for any of the bombs or spray tanks though, it is possible the US had all destroyed before implementation of the treaty. Still, SETH are part of the history in their own right.

 

[US-Subs]

Here are a couple of shots of some of my SETH, one for the M23 mine and the container for one of the CAIS kits. Just so the thread isn't hijacked too far I've thrown in some pictures of one of the coolest WWII M64s I've ever seen, with M48 fuze.