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Vietnamese Rifle Grenades found ROAD 28 A - SAVANNAKHET PROVINCE
- Thread starter weberoed
- Start date
V40
Well-Known Member
North Vietnam made ordnance during the War. Three rifle grenades, an M8 launcher that belongs on the end of the M1, M2 Carbines w/7.62x54R booster GLB is quite normal in Vietnam back then. The North Vietnamese sent one or two of their Battalions over that direction to hopefully knock out the USAFB at NKP (Nakhon Phanom Royal Thai Air Force Base) if it had been ordered to do so. Some North Vietnamese companies were especially trained to do "Sapper" and "Special Trackers" attacks when the need arose. Most of them however were on the East side of the country hunting down SOG Teams. I would think that instead of the North Vietnamese being over that far, their would be a large contingent of the Pathet Lao which held onto most of Laos with the exception of such places as the "Plain De Jars", Attopeu (this depended on which day it was.) and the northern provinces of the Golden Triangle. READ: General Vang Pao's area of control and with the CIA. If you follow Laos back then cities inside would change daily from the enemy holding it then friendly forces fighting for it.
At one time NK was "Spook" haven.
At one time NK was "Spook" haven.
Mike,
I also have to disagree about the launcher and cartridge. I believe these launchers were intended to fit the Chinese Type 53 bolt action carbine, which was a copy of the Soviet Type 44 Mosin Nagant carbine. They were chambered for the 7.62 X 54R cartridge, not the rimless 7.62 X 39 round of the SKS.
The launcher is almost a perfect copy of the M8 launcher for the M1 carbine except for the adjusting nut on the clamp assembly. I think the muzzle and sight area of the carbines had "looser" tolerances than a U.S. GI gun and the adjustment allowed the launcher to be assembled tightly. I once tried to buy one at a gun show that was tagged as an M1 carbine launcher and I explained what the owner actually had. He argued and refused to believe it was anything other than a U.S. carbine accessory. The more I explained, the madder he got and I figured he'd refuse to sell it to me if I kept explaining it. So I just paid him for his "M1 carbine launcher" and walked off.
The one in the photo below came with its original oil paper and plastic wrapper and was packed with a spare grenade retaining spring. I don't think these were very common as the VC/NVA didn't employ very many types of spigot rifle grenades. Off the top of my head, I can only recall a few types used including the NVA example below, the Chinese copy of the U.S. M9A1, and the Polish F1/N60 and PGN-60 types. The Polish grenades had 20mm spigot holes, not the standard 22mm of the pictured launcher, as well as U.S. and Nato launchers.
I assume the VC also got some of the Polish grenade launching AK varients as Warsaw Pact aid to launch the unique Polish grenades. Until two months ago, I'd never actually seen a Polish rifle grenade that I KNEW came from Vietnam. Then I bought an inerted PGN-60 HEAT grenade that an Army EOD vet picked up in Quang Tri Province in 1969. He served with the 59th EODD in I Corps, supporting the 5th Infantry Division, 101st Airmobile Division, and 3rd Marine Division, and inerted it himself as a souvenir.
Rick
I also have to disagree about the launcher and cartridge. I believe these launchers were intended to fit the Chinese Type 53 bolt action carbine, which was a copy of the Soviet Type 44 Mosin Nagant carbine. They were chambered for the 7.62 X 54R cartridge, not the rimless 7.62 X 39 round of the SKS.
The launcher is almost a perfect copy of the M8 launcher for the M1 carbine except for the adjusting nut on the clamp assembly. I think the muzzle and sight area of the carbines had "looser" tolerances than a U.S. GI gun and the adjustment allowed the launcher to be assembled tightly. I once tried to buy one at a gun show that was tagged as an M1 carbine launcher and I explained what the owner actually had. He argued and refused to believe it was anything other than a U.S. carbine accessory. The more I explained, the madder he got and I figured he'd refuse to sell it to me if I kept explaining it. So I just paid him for his "M1 carbine launcher" and walked off.
The one in the photo below came with its original oil paper and plastic wrapper and was packed with a spare grenade retaining spring. I don't think these were very common as the VC/NVA didn't employ very many types of spigot rifle grenades. Off the top of my head, I can only recall a few types used including the NVA example below, the Chinese copy of the U.S. M9A1, and the Polish F1/N60 and PGN-60 types. The Polish grenades had 20mm spigot holes, not the standard 22mm of the pictured launcher, as well as U.S. and Nato launchers.
I assume the VC also got some of the Polish grenade launching AK varients as Warsaw Pact aid to launch the unique Polish grenades. Until two months ago, I'd never actually seen a Polish rifle grenade that I KNEW came from Vietnam. Then I bought an inerted PGN-60 HEAT grenade that an Army EOD vet picked up in Quang Tri Province in 1969. He served with the 59th EODD in I Corps, supporting the 5th Infantry Division, 101st Airmobile Division, and 3rd Marine Division, and inerted it himself as a souvenir.
Rick
V40
Well-Known Member
Oh absolutely correct Alex. There were others but thank you for mentioning LS85. Cambodia was another part of the "Truong Son Route". Rick, it was truely a "Family Affair" as far as the Communists were concerned. Most of the items that North Vietnam aquired were from basically two Countries. China and the Soviet Union with the USSR supplying THE most so-called-aid. It was also basically free. North Vietnam actually hated the Chinese as Uncle Ho stated in one of his speechs. They were however gratefull for all their ordnance and their for them being advisors. One other item that suprises me was the number of Chinese Pilots who did fly some of the MiG-17s. Other advisors that participated were the East Germans, Polish, Cubans, Bulgarians, Hungary, and Poland. They sent anything from weapons to ammo, and all kinds of ammunition. They also provided Nurses, Medicines, and Operating rooms in the jungle in Cambodia and Laos. The medical staff and medicines were from East Germany.
The Soviet Union provided tremendous amount of instruction from them such as pilot training for the MiG-17s, MiG-19s, and some MiG-21s which I believe the USSR only supplied approximately 20 MiG-21s as they were the same Intercepters that the Russians used allot for their own protection in the event of a conventional war with the West (yeah right.).
Back on the launcher and rifle grenade shown, they used another kind of round to be shot off those weapons. It appears that they were French mortar rounds converted to be fired as rifle grenades. The picture I will take today will also show this mortar(?). Also, R/Gs were used against us which included both types. SOG on a few missions were rifled grenaded by the NVA which kind of spooked the RTs on missions as they thought that the North didn't use our have such items.
SOG really went in deep into Laos and Cambodia during the war. The reason and the most popular reason for such long range missions was because of not knowing were they were in accordance with International Law. But when you are performing a mission say into Laos they could be in as far 30 miles inside Laos. Their were no markers inside the jungle telling you that you are now in Laos, North Vietnam, Cambodia, or even in Thailand. I also forgot to mention North Korea supplying grenades and weapons from the Korean War. Hope this helps those that are yearning for a little more history. By the way, all pictures shown here are magnificent.
The Soviet Union provided tremendous amount of instruction from them such as pilot training for the MiG-17s, MiG-19s, and some MiG-21s which I believe the USSR only supplied approximately 20 MiG-21s as they were the same Intercepters that the Russians used allot for their own protection in the event of a conventional war with the West (yeah right.).
Back on the launcher and rifle grenade shown, they used another kind of round to be shot off those weapons. It appears that they were French mortar rounds converted to be fired as rifle grenades. The picture I will take today will also show this mortar(?). Also, R/Gs were used against us which included both types. SOG on a few missions were rifled grenaded by the NVA which kind of spooked the RTs on missions as they thought that the North didn't use our have such items.
SOG really went in deep into Laos and Cambodia during the war. The reason and the most popular reason for such long range missions was because of not knowing were they were in accordance with International Law. But when you are performing a mission say into Laos they could be in as far 30 miles inside Laos. Their were no markers inside the jungle telling you that you are now in Laos, North Vietnam, Cambodia, or even in Thailand. I also forgot to mention North Korea supplying grenades and weapons from the Korean War. Hope this helps those that are yearning for a little more history. By the way, all pictures shown here are magnificent.
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Rick, great image and info! Thanks for that!
Do you happen to have the propelling cartridge as well? I'd be curious to see the head stamp.
I also recall plenty of French and British stuff in "Indochina".
Mark, plenty of the so called "advisors" (including the East German ones of which I know from first hand) were often directly related to active engagement of the enemy when it came to AA batteries since the observers were often the commanders of the units or particular installations.
There were also plenty of US advisors in Laos + all sort of agency folks, not only stray regular US troops coming from VN. Guess ou knew that anyways.
If I recall it right China later in the war stopped supporting VN due to the mentioned disagreements.
Yes, LS85 is one of my favourites (as you know).
Any more images out there of originally VN made ammunition?
I know for a fact I disposed of a number of these that were on SKS's in late 71 (2nd tour in VN as an EOD tech and in Quang Tri). A number of sapper had been killed trying to blow the ASP in Quang Tri. We also found PGN 60s there too, but these had had their tails removed and the base fuze. Base fuze was replaced with a chemical pencil. And magnets secured tot he front end to hold the RG in place on a pallet of 155mm HEs. This set up was used to blow the ASP. Previous (early 71) one of our Sr NCOs was KIA at the same ASP trying to disarm one of these.
In any case one of the SKS's had a launcher attached to it, I didn't see anything for years until the Yugo SKS came out with rifle launcer adapters. We also found on one of the boodies 2 of the classic VN HEAT rifle grenades that looked similar to your M 9 HEAT RGs.
I can't find an adapter for the M 1 carbine (.30 cal carbine), but can find one that is similar to the M 1 Grand (30.06 cal). Not sure the carbine would have enough power to launch a RG very far.
FYI I have a pretty good collection of VN ord, EOD manuals on them and pubs of that time frame.
In any case one of the SKS's had a launcher attached to it, I didn't see anything for years until the Yugo SKS came out with rifle launcer adapters. We also found on one of the boodies 2 of the classic VN HEAT rifle grenades that looked similar to your M 9 HEAT RGs.
I can't find an adapter for the M 1 carbine (.30 cal carbine), but can find one that is similar to the M 1 Grand (30.06 cal). Not sure the carbine would have enough power to launch a RG very far.
FYI I have a pretty good collection of VN ord, EOD manuals on them and pubs of that time frame.
Error - I did found a rifle grenade cartridge for the .30 cal carbine, but no launcher yet. However I did locate another photo of this grenade with its launcher and launcher cartridge - still look 7.62 x 39 to me. But I can't get a good measurement off the photo 
V40
Well-Known Member
The Carbine was to only fire a rifle grenade in an emergency "ONLY"! It would not hold up under a steady diet of firing R/Gs as the power was known to split the wood stock. Mike, if you have the time and start showing more pictures, EOD Manuels and publications from that time period and start showing them. I am sure that everybody here would like to see them.
Do a Google search for a M8, I am sure you will find it.
NOTE: When the NVA attacked FOB #4 near Danang right beside Marble Moutain the NVA "Sapper" Teams came a shore after swimming approximately several miles from a VC Village just to the north. Some say they came down from North Vietnam and swam the distance taking a few days to reach #4. Anyhow, they did considerable damage in the camp when they came a shore. SOG had set up most of its security on three sides leaving the ocean practically wide open. This caused the single biggest loss to SOG/SF in History.
The sappers only wore swim trunks with belts of grenades, B40s, satchel charges, bangalores, and AK47s. These B40s from what I understand were supposedly armed by swinging them over their heads times and were tossed against buildings, bunkers, and even people. Satchel charges were also used to blow bunkers and SOGs sleeping areas. This is where allot of SOG died; by satchel charges thrown into their sleeping quarters. They also used Bangalores to blow more shacks up including the base's TOC.
Now my question to all, is how did they rig the B40 rockets to arm when tossed around with rope and/or cloth connecting the rocket with around 4-5 feet of cloth or rope tied to it and the other end being held by the sapper and being swung around???? This has been a quest for me for a very long time and I have yet to figure out what/how they did to these B40s inorder for them to be armed this way? In Plaster's book which I know that EOD has (page 427), it appears to still have on it a silver shipping plug on the rear (If that is what it is called?) with the end being tied to such cord/rope?
If anybody can tell me how it was rigged to have it being armed by this method, I would be forever in your debt!!
Do a Google search for a M8, I am sure you will find it.
NOTE: When the NVA attacked FOB #4 near Danang right beside Marble Moutain the NVA "Sapper" Teams came a shore after swimming approximately several miles from a VC Village just to the north. Some say they came down from North Vietnam and swam the distance taking a few days to reach #4. Anyhow, they did considerable damage in the camp when they came a shore. SOG had set up most of its security on three sides leaving the ocean practically wide open. This caused the single biggest loss to SOG/SF in History.
The sappers only wore swim trunks with belts of grenades, B40s, satchel charges, bangalores, and AK47s. These B40s from what I understand were supposedly armed by swinging them over their heads times and were tossed against buildings, bunkers, and even people. Satchel charges were also used to blow bunkers and SOGs sleeping areas. This is where allot of SOG died; by satchel charges thrown into their sleeping quarters. They also used Bangalores to blow more shacks up including the base's TOC.
Now my question to all, is how did they rig the B40 rockets to arm when tossed around with rope and/or cloth connecting the rocket with around 4-5 feet of cloth or rope tied to it and the other end being held by the sapper and being swung around???? This has been a quest for me for a very long time and I have yet to figure out what/how they did to these B40s inorder for them to be armed this way? In Plaster's book which I know that EOD has (page 427), it appears to still have on it a silver shipping plug on the rear (If that is what it is called?) with the end being tied to such cord/rope?
If anybody can tell me how it was rigged to have it being armed by this method, I would be forever in your debt!!
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Mike, the cartridge in the image is definately a 7.62x54R.
There was a very similar launcher used on the North Korean Type 63 varient of the SKS. The photos attached were taken from a discussion at the Surplusrifle Forum where they noted the observation of 11 of these rifles in various collections. As our trade relations with NK has been a bit chilly since the 50s, I assume these came to the U.S. as souvenirs from Vietnam.
As the muzzle area of the SKS is a bit different from the T-53 Mosin Nagant carbine, the attachment parts are slightly different but the launchers are otherwise the same. I'll bet this is the type of launcher you encountered on SKS rifles during your tour.
Mark,
Not a clue how the B40s were armed and used as sling grenades but sure sounds interesting.
Rick
thanks for clearing the launcher question.
As for the B 40 (PG-2), most of the time they would remove the tail and then BD fuze (DB 2 or DB4) and replace it with a chemical pencil or inthe case of using it as a mine a press firing pin. There have been rumors that the DB-2 BD fuze (which has a graze sensitive element vs the DB 4 which had a pyro delay doe self destruct), could be hit hard on its base - supposedly arming the fuze, then when throwen on impact it would detonate. I have never been able to confirm this and the fuze functioning to me does not support it. Both fuzes require setback to arm them. Arm of each fuze follows
DB 2
So swing the B 40 around ion a rope is not going to give enough set back to arm either fuze.
I doubt if the B 40 was used as an explosive charge, but more likely a sabotage charge where its shaped charge would do the damage.
There are numerous references to using the B 40 as a BT mine or sabotage device, it has even been used (its PG 2 brother) in Iraq and Afghan - but here they tend to call t an IED.
As for the B 40 (PG-2), most of the time they would remove the tail and then BD fuze (DB 2 or DB4) and replace it with a chemical pencil or inthe case of using it as a mine a press firing pin. There have been rumors that the DB-2 BD fuze (which has a graze sensitive element vs the DB 4 which had a pyro delay doe self destruct), could be hit hard on its base - supposedly arming the fuze, then when throwen on impact it would detonate. I have never been able to confirm this and the fuze functioning to me does not support it. Both fuzes require setback to arm them. Arm of each fuze follows
DB 2
On grenade launch and during acceleration, setback moves the arming sleeve rearward, overcoming the arming sleeve spring. The striker retaining pin, riding in the large zigzag slot, delays the arming sleeve. When the arming sleeve reaches its rearmost position, the striker retaining pin enters the small zigzag slot, but does not withdraw from the striker guide hole. As acceleration ceases, the arming sleeve spring moves the arming sleeve forward until it clears the striker retaining pin. This frees the striker to move in the striker guide, arming the fuze.
DB 4 On grenade launch, acceleration causes the setback primer to overcome its spring and impact the fixed firing pin. The setback primer ignites the self-destruct delay and pyrotechnic detent block. Simultaneously, the arming sleeve moves rearward, compressing its spring. The arming sleeve is retained at the rear until it clears the lockpin. The lockpin is then forced outward by its spring. Upon burning of the pyrotechnic detent block, the detent is forced into the vacant cavity by its spring, arming the fuze.
So swing the B 40 around ion a rope is not going to give enough set back to arm either fuze.
I doubt if the B 40 was used as an explosive charge, but more likely a sabotage charge where its shaped charge would do the damage.
There are numerous references to using the B 40 as a BT mine or sabotage device, it has even been used (its PG 2 brother) in Iraq and Afghan - but here they tend to call t an IED.
French rifle grenade which the NVA used and copied
"O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade, that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy."
If I got it right the DB2 and DB4 should be copies of the Soviet DK-2 and DK-4 fuzes.
There are plenty of rumors on munitions with set back armed fuzes which were "hit hard" and then used as hand grenades. As most here will know setback armed fuzes are usually designed in a way to prevent exactly this! Also this is usually a big issue in QA. So I agree that there are well supported doubts if this "trick" ever worked.
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