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What is this .22" initiated Device ?

C

charley777

Well-Known Member
Greetings
What is this device for? It came with a bag of assorted flare cases.
The markings are ... Z W over an arrow E 60 / Germany
The threaded end holds a .22 rimfire cartridge of some sort.
The headstamp is a monogram ... H and P combined.
Length is 36mm. Width is 16.45mm.
Material appears to some sort of blue-anodised aluminium alloy.
The large end is sealed with green paint.
It is probably some kind of illumination device ....
Any information most welcome, thanks
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they are mini flares originally issued in military pilots survival vests,for signaling rescuers.there are alot of variations including civilian types
not sure how many different colors there are
 

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These are german, civilian 15mm flares, orange smoke or salutes ment to be fired from pen-type launchers. For around 60 years these were sold freely all over Europe for civilian use. The russians even copied and sold these items. For military use they are too small. The cup just contains a standard 15mm aluboxed star. When a british company bought the german main manufacturer Comet, they changed this 60 year old system so as to be able to sell this worldwide. In Britain this civilian model is termed a military item because of the 6mm rimfire cap. Apparently, under british law rimfire caps are termed as military items. In the rest of europe it is just the other way around. 6mm rimfire caps are the basic standard for all civilian pyro launchers. Because of this , this system has been effectively killed and is only offered as collectors items.
 
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Yes the .22 is Hirtenberg in Austria but looks like WE 60 Germany on the raised print.
My only similar green flare signal is by COMET Germany. I also need a correct ID.
HP .22 could have been made anywhere. Winchester in Geelong, Vic, Australia made .22 with HP headstamps too.
 
As I wrote, the 6mm Flobert blanks are a basic standard for launching 15mm stars/flares/smokes a.s.o. The blanks are manufactured by many different companies with slightly different qualities. Hirtenberger and Dynamit Nobel are upper class blanks while there are also offered blanks from many countries of the world, which are cheaper. By the way, these are not .22 blanks but 6mm Flobert blanks. The manufacturers of the 15mm flarerounds inserts any type of blank he just has in stock, but mostly the better ones. The manufacturer of the ready screwcartridge may have bought all components from different manufacturers and only assembled these under his own name. These penflares were sold as "emergency signals" the whole year round as technical items. But I think most were fired for fun on parties and similar occasions. They always were expensive, 3-4 times the price of a 15mm star and a Flobert blank which can be fired with german blank pistols like the "Weinberg"-model. With a rising-height of only 30m I don't think they would be of much use on the seas or high mountains with a gale running.
 
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Thank you Bellifortis for the info.
I notice that the usual code was green case with one raised rib on the case for green flares.
Red case with 2 raised ribs for red flare and aluminium case no ribs on the white flare cases.
I only have a complete set of German cases with RWS acorn headstamps on the rimfire cases. Not the same as in this query.
 
@ron3350,
now we have to delve a little deeper into this subject. Civilian use cartridges in germany do not have any sensory identification. These you only find on military use items. The 1 or 2 ribs you find on differently coloured cartridges for civilian use. "Komet" is the brand-name of "W.Reimer" company, an old company specialising in pyro sea signaling devices. Now we have to look at the different arms laws in every country. In Germany all blank-firing-devices and arms have to be stamped with a PTB No., which means they conform to certain specifications. Also the pyroammunition needs a PM1 classification to be sold freely all year round to anybody with a minimum age of 18 . Now comes the difficult part. Under british urisdiction these german civilian flare cartridges are termed military items (because they are rimfire/its crazy) and so in Britain you need an arms licence for the launcher-pens and the ammunition. Every country has different laws. I do not know how these items are handled in the US , New Zealand or Australia. Now also every eportmanager and Rep. of a production company would like to sell to the military, because they buy a lots. So may be there are cartriges around that were given to some foreign military for testing and hopefully purchasing these. Myselfes I believe these 15mm flares much too small for military use. But, if they are termed a military item in GB, the british military must have used them at some time. I do not know of any country introducing these small items. But, our british friends here must know more. The smallest pyro signaling device I know of in the german airforce is H & K Caliber 6 : 19 x 36mm device specially devised for the emergency pack of Tornado pilots. These flares have a rising height of 60 - 90 m to reach above a high tree canopy. It was ment for the last pinpoint identification for the rescue helicopters. These are outdated already and are no more used. The mil. issue launchers have no PTB stamp and you need an arms licence here to purchase these. But, the exactly same launcher with a PTB stamp can be purchased freely. These are all collector items meanwhile. Attached is a foto of a very small selection of civilian pyrocartriges. The ones in the background are russian Baikal company production.German 15mm Miniflares 004.jpg
Bellifortis.
 
As far as I know, these mini flare launchers and ammunition would be covered by Section 1 of the firearms act in the UK.

That means that they would in theory be legally available to civilians who, in the opinion of the police, have a "good reason" to possess them.

That is the same legal category as weapons such as bolt-action rifles.
 
Thank you all very much.
Lots of info to absorb on a subject about which i knew nothing...
So its powered by a 6mm Flobert blank/cap . My .22 assumption was so wrong !
Cheers ������
 
As far as I am aware, the UK authorities take the view that under the UK laws, the rimfire version counts as a "barrelled weapon". This fits the UK legal definition of a firearm.

Disclaimer: I am not a police officer, lawyer or otherwise officially qualified to give any advice on these matters. This is only what I have been told in the past.

It is a good idea to be informed of the laws related to ordnance in the world we live in today.
 
The Mk. 1 Miniflare projector (aluminium body, screw in flares) is classified in the UK as a Section 1 Firearm. This is a result of a number of stated cases, the first was in the early 70s and the most recent - R v Singh (1989). It was/is the Crown's contention that the casing of the flare cartridge acted as a barrel, thus the item fulfilled the act's definition of a firearm as it was a 'lethal barrelled weapon.'

That said, there was a prosecution brought by the Counter Terrorism Command in about 2017 for possession of a Miniflare projector and that was dismissed. However, in the last 6 months I had cause to speak to a Senior Firearms Licencing officer regarding Miniflare projectors and he stated that nothwithstanding the failed CTC prosecution, they were still considered Sec. 1 Firearms.

TimG
 
hi @TimG,
again I learned something I did not know before, that the "cup" is considered a barrel. The last productchange the british owner of Comet made, was changing to center-fire capsView attachment miniflare-cap-and-pack-changes-letter-291116.pdf. But, the flare is still launched from the same cup, which is considered a barrel in GB. The other pen shown as a legal one, has no "cup". The whole aluminum-tube is the flare and is projected from the capholder by a standard shotgun cap. This is an interesting development by defunct FEISTEL company and I think is an offshoot of their 16 x 36mm cartridge for the Tornado pilot emergency kit. How will this be seen legally in UK. It has no barrel at all.IMG_0053.jpgIMG_0054.jpg These are 2 pages from an old export catalog. As I told before this ammunition has not been produced for many, many years and these items are much thought after collectors items in germany. The pen witha similar cartridge system in 16,5mm was only offered for a short time in germany for civilian use. The factory had problems with the cartridges and they were removed from the market. They tried to sell these to the military in other countries. I don't know if there have been any export contracts.IMG_0049.jpgIMG_0051.jpg They are off the market since about 30 years, but are simetimes offered as collectors items. There is a very nice film on Youtube where a US guy explains and talks about the Heckler & Koch 19 x 36mm launcher-device. It seems that it does not fit under any US regulations. I could not find that film when I searched for it yesterday.
Bellifortis.
 
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In service with the British army the flare system was known as the 16 mm Signal Kit Pyrotechnic Pistol. I am sure I have seen earlier posts on here about that. I understood that they were a version of an earlier maritime distress or signalling flare. The pen launcher and 8 or 10 flares (I forget exactly how many) came in a thick plastic wallet, green with black markings. The wallet had a captive tear-off strip on one edge. When you pulled the free end it exposed the flares. You cock the launcher ready for firing and you simply screw the pen onto an exposed flare, aim it skyward and fire. In British service the flare was fitted with a .22 Inch rimfire cap. The flare star was ejected from the aluminium body and to prepare to fire again you then unscrewed the spent aluminium body and screwed on another flare. The early military version launchers were well made and gold in colour but very quickly gave way to the black cheaper version that could not be cocked before adding a flare. Many years ago a colleague of mine was accidently hit in the chest by one of these when the person who found it did not have an idea what he had found, screwed in a flare and fired. The man was instantly very badly bruised and was lucky not to have a broken rib. I used many such flares in the 1980s. They came in several colours - red, green and illuminating, possibly also yellow.
 
I have a good selection of pen-type launched flare cartridges and ask how do I list these as calibre types?
Some are 9mm base with a 1.00 pitch thread.
The outside diameters vary from 13mm, 15mm, 15.5mm, 16.5mm and 17mm .
USA aluminium types are different with different threads and lengths.

I have measured them by diameter and overall case length to the base of the rimfire cartridge. I have these.
13x40.3 with 2 bayonet type lugs.
15.5x41.
16.5x32
16.5x36
16.5x53
17x51

Is the case type measured from the inside case diameter or the outside diameter? (eg) 16.5x36 is 15mm inside and 16.5mm outside diameter.
The 17x51 has a much thicker case wall than all others. I can supply photos if needed but need to locate them all.
I have enjoyed this posting. I also think that UK flares have .22 rimfires and not the thicker rimmed 6mm ? Not sure about this statement?
 
WOW. What a lot of abaloney (as an ex skin diver/spearfisherman would say).
Luckily Australia considers these exactly what they were designed for. Safety equipment for signalling in an emergency.
 
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