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Would like to get an Id on this 75mm shell case owned by a friend.

MorrieNZ

Member
I am wondering if anyone might be able to help me identify a Brass 75mm Shell Case that belongs to a friend.,

I am a former part time (territorial) soldier of 16th Field Regiment, Royal New Zealand Artillery, so have some knowledge of ammunition and other artillery matters, but google searches etc haven't helped me identify this shell case and I am not collector of ordnance or militaria. It appears to me to be a slightly unusual case in that it looks rather long for its 75mm bore, and if it were from WW2 I would have thought it likely to be from a high velocity anti tank or anti aircraft gun, but I presume the 1915 marking means it is from the year 1915, well before anti tank guns were around, although I suppose the 1915 might not be a year and might mean something else.

Stamped on the base of Shell case (is the correct term Head stamps?), which is slightly dished inwards (concave), which in itself seems unusual to me, is the following.

PATRONENFABRIK

KARLSRUHE

1915

90 (I suppose that could be 06 if I have the orientation wrong, but I think it was 90)

The primer appears to have been removed at some time and the resulting hole filled with filler of some sort.

Those appear to be the only marks stamped on the shell case that I can see although there is a little corrosion or verdigris which may be obscuring other small marks.

The case is brass, rimmed, of 75 mm in diameter, and 693 - 695 mm long (the owner had trouble measuring the length accurately)

I presume it was made in Germany from the stamp marks, and I presume made in 1915 although that 1915 marking could mean something other than a year of manufacture I suppose.

The New Zealand family who have the shell case had a relative, a driver in the NZ Field Artillery, killed in France in WW1 in the battle of Flers-Courclette starting on 15th Sep 1916, the third and final major Allied thrust of the battle of the Somme. He died of wounds in a New Zealand military hospital just south of London on 20th Sept 1916. That was NZ's first battle on the western front after arriving there from Gallipoli where I understand he had also fought. I am not sure if the shell case was sent back by him to NZ before he was killed or whether it has some other unrelated provenance.

Attached are two photos of the shell case, which unfortunately are of very oor quality due to it being night and me only having the camera in my oldish mobile phone with me at the time.

Hopefully someone can help with identifying this 75mm shell case.

Cheers,
Chris M
 

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75mm case

With a dished base like that I always thought the case was for a French Canet designed gun. Had a very similar case 75x688R with French markings 1938.
 
Thanks for that so far dano, Charlie, and 2pdr, although we aren't perhaps quite there yet I suspect.

I have a newbie question. The shell case is obviously Gemarn made, in Karlsruhe, so is it possible for a 1915 German shell case to be for a French gun, when the French were Germany's enemy?

On the general identification I would really like to see if we can pin this down to the type of gun, ie, field gun, anti tank, anti air, etc, if possible (exact model mould be wonderful but maybe a little optimistic). The very long length (695mm) in relation to the bore (75mm) and the dished base seem quite distinctive features, the long length in particular seems to me likely to be unusual for 1915 which was well before the appearance of tanks and I would have thought fairly early even for an anti aircraft gun?

Cheers and looking forward to some more ideas and discussion on this.


Chris.
 
My goodness Kz11gr, you might be onto it here. That looks very much like the same thing. The case at that link has a headstamp of I think 947 where my friends has 90, but that might be just a batch number or something of that nature, other wise it looks identical.

You might have the answer there for me. A Naval gun would make sense with the long case as 1915 seemed too early to be an anti tank or anti aircraft shell.

Now I'll be off looking round the net for pictures and info on the gun.

Awesome stuff thank you very much

Cheers,
Chris M
 
My goodness Kz11gr, you might be onto it here. That looks very much like the same thing. The case at that link has a headstamp of I think 947 where my friends has 90, but that might be just a batch number or something of that nature, other wise it looks identical.

You might have the answer there for me. A Naval gun would make sense with the long case as 1915 seemed too early to be an anti tank or anti aircraft shell.

Now I'll be off looking round the net for pictures and info on the gun.

Awesome stuff thank you very much

Cheers,
Chris M

Hi chris

i think it is an export ammo for bulgaria or turkey

:tinysmile_fatgrin_t
 
Thanks for that on Bulgaria or Turkey kz.

Do you think it's also possible that it was made in Germany in early 1915 for the Italians, before the Italians entered the war against Germany in May 1915?

Are there references to Bulgaria or Turkey using that Schneider/Ansaldo gun as well?

I have found a few references to the Italian version online, on WW1 warships as an anti torpedo boat gun and later in WW1 and in WW2 as both a naval and land based AA gun (also as a shore battery gun in some cases). I can't find any references at all to the French themsleves using it despite Schneider having designed it? Was the official French model designation "Schneider 76mm model 1911" or something else do you know?

Can't find a photo of either the French or Italian versions of the gun online yet. The Nearest I could find is a photo of a WW2 Italian 76/40 AA gun, and some similar type Russian 76mm naval guns.

Cheers,
Chris
 
It's a possibility, but i think that Italy had possibility to produce alone .

Very few info about this ammo. Sorry .
 
Hi Kz. Yes it seems to be quite an obscure bit of ammunition.

Thank you very much for the information you have supplied. It looks as though that is very likely to be the gun anyway, The Schneider/Ansaldo 76mm model 1911 76/45 Naval gun.

If anyone sees a photo of one or any info on the French version, which I can find nothing about at all so far, I'd love to see what the gun looked like.

Cheers,
Chris M
 
Schneider Canet

The Naval Annual of 1906 by Leyland and Brassey gives details of two Schneider-Canet similar guns 57mm and 75mm, the latter is refered to as semi automatic 75mm quick firer and was ship mountable. Will try and get the photos to reproduce on the scanner tomorrow.
 
Thanks for that 2pdr. That would be appreciated.

I have found overnight these several photos of the actual anti torpedo boat Schneider-Ansaldo 76/45 model 1911 Cannoni concerned, that we think the shell case came from, as fitted to the Italian battleships Caio Duilio and Andrea Doria from 1913 until their rebuilds in 1937, 13 guns per ship, mounted to the tops of the main gun turrets in pairs and triples and the 13th gun mounted on deck up at the bow. None of the photos are closeups of the 76/45 guns however.

Photos of both ships showing the 76/45s attached.

Will add another reply with some similar but different gun photos that I have found.
 

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Also some more Photos I have uncovered overnight of some similar type naval guns, and later anti aircraft developments of such 75 and 76 mm naval guns.

1. A similar type of Russian 75/50 Naval anti torpedo boat gun from late 19th/early 20th C.

2.Development of a similar type (an Ansaldo 75/46) as an Anti aircraft gun in WW2. ("Our" Ansaldo 76/45 was also used in WW2 as an AA gun).

3 and 4. Two photos (1928 and WW1) of an American 3"/50 gun during training in anti aircraft and anti torpedo boat roles showing how similar the shell is to the Schneider-Ansaldo 76/45 shell.

Cheers,
Chris M
 

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Schneider Canet

photos as promised sorry about the poor quality but the origonals were only prints in a book. Note the open breach on the 57mm showing the distinctive curve leading to the case having a dished base.
2pr
 

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Thanks for those 2pdr. I wonder what the reason was for the convex breech/ concave cartridge. Some added strength perhaps because of the "arch" shape, allowing a thinner walled and lighter breech block perhaps?

Cheers,
Chris M
 
breach face shape

My guess would be that the gun designer came up with a quicker breach closing action than interupted screw ( sliding breaches were not used on navy guns or any other at that time) so cases were made concave. It was not a great sucsess judging by how well it caught on, it also made case manufacture more complex.
 
Yes, it must have made the cases more expensive to make one would imagine.

Cheers, and thanks for your help on this to everyone who has contributed.

Chris M
 
ciao
the reason for which this case has built in germany, it's a mystery...
shell used are the same as 76/40, 76/30 and 76/50 Vikers 1908
some shot of italian cannone da 76/45 modello 1911 S (schneider)
 

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