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WW2 U-Boat 8,8cm / 10,5 cm deck gun optical sight

butterfly

HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Ok, here is something a little different...
.... an optical sight that was designed for use with the 8,8cm SKC/35u and the 10,5cm SKC/32u U-boat deck guns.

Both of these deck guns were 'dual control', by that I mean, there were identical controls on either side of the gun for both traverse and elevation and as such there were also two sights, identical in nature but not interchangeable - in fact they were a 'mirror image' of each other; one was marked L and the other R for left and right respectively. The sight has two viewing points, one for the aimer who takes a position 'in line' with the gun and is responsible for the traverse of the weapon, the other is for the layer, who took a position at the aimers shoulder and looked through the sight at 90 degrees to the gun, he was responsible for the elevation of the weapon and in so doing the range. A third member of the gun crew acted as loader and gunner. Three other members of the crew were required to bring up the ammunition - this completed the 'gun crew'. Having dual controls the aimer and layer could take positions on the side which wouldnt obstruct the supply of ammuniton to the gun, there being limited space on deck. There as a locker which contained 'ready use' ammunition in waterproof cannisters which would keep the gun supplied until further ammunition could be brought up from below. The sight is waterproof as would be expected, however not only is it waterproof but also pressure proof to 15atm (atmospheres) which equates to an approximate depth of 140 meters. That being said although pressure proof these sights were normally removed before the U-boat submersed as they were prone to damage by depth charge. However in an emergency such as a crash dive, they could remain in place.
The sight has in built filters 'Sonne' and 'Scheinw' for bright sunlight or searchlight, the third setting being 'Klar' or clear. The optics are 5x14 and are marked 'T' to indicate that the optics are coated. They also include built in illumination for use at night, the battery compartment can be seen with the fixing clamp. Manufacturer code blc for Carl Zeiss.

Although primarily designed for use on the U-boats the same guns/optics can be seen in photographs mounted on small surface vessels, it is presumed that more guns were built than U-Boats and what was good enough for a Submarine was certainly good enough for a surface vessel.

As the war progressed Merchant ships were fitted with guns, making confrontation more dangerous and although the merchant men were no match for a well trained U-Boat gun crew, one lucky shot could spell disaster for the Submarine making it impossible to dive. As allied air cover increased and inventions such as Radar became available the use of the deck gun became almost non-existant. By 1943 most of the guns were removed from the U-Boats replaced to some degree by AA guns. No doubt guns removed from the decks were used elsewhere; quite possibly those found in use on the Atlantic wall defences? (there is certainly no need to have pressure proof optics on dry land, yet examples of the sights can be seen in period photos used as part of the Atlantic wall defences!!)

My research is ongoing regarding finding out more about the sights, such as how they were stored when not in use? etc... but that is all part of the fun of collecting.

I know this isnt ordnance, but it is connected in some way.......I hope that members enjoy the thread

kind regards Kev

1.JPG2.JPG3.jpg4.JPG5.JPG6.JPG7.JPG8.JPG9.JPG10.JPG
 
Here is a photograph that I bought which shows two of these sights mounted to a deck gun of a Type VII U-boat.
The example I have is for the right hand side mount.

It will be noted when you look at this photo that the sights have a full face visor, whereas mine has a headpad. Both the full face visor and the headpad are secured by a clamp and are external to the sight itself. ( I am not sure why this one has headpads, I assume they were fitted later, maybe a good indication it did see service, but it does appear they were non-standard, more research needed!!) The sight I have has also clearly been overpainted, the original light grey paint clear underneath, this could well be period done.

anyway here is the photo. (note, the photograph image itself is taken from the original listing done by the seller, however I have now bought and now own the photo seen)

Kev
 

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Hi Kev,now that is a fascinating bit of kit,seems a bit over complex to have two sights in one,a remarkable piece of optical engineering,but,,,it must have worked as many merchant ships were sunk by gunfire from such submarines,
Thanks for posting pics,
Regards,
Don,
 
Hi Kev,now that is a fascinating bit of kit,seems a bit over complex to have two sights in one,a remarkable piece of optical engineering,but,,,it must have worked as many merchant ships were sunk by gunfire from such submarines,
Thanks for posting pics,
Regards,
Don,

Thank you Don.

The deck gun was a secondary weapon and was used initially to fire warning shots across the bows of merchant ships in order to get them to surrender. A surfaced U-boat could outrun a heavily laden merchant ship and if caught alone on the open sea there was only likely to be one outcome. If the ship did surrender then men were given to opportunity to take to the lifeboats before the ship was sunk - it was primarily the U-boats job to sink ships not kill men.
Certainly early in the war when the merchant vessels were unarmed a lot of ships were sunk with the deck gun, the reason for this is quite simple - why waste a good torpedo, which was expensive to produce, when a few rounds would do the same job at little cost? The torpedoes were the main weapon and if they could be saved for another day they would be. The gun was also used to finish off the ships that refused to sink after a torpedo attack, again a few well aimed shots to the waterline would be enough.

It ought to be said that the U-boats made a very poor gun platform, both aimer and layer leant into U-shaped supports and in rough weather could be strapped into their positions. However, the gun could only really be used in the calmest of seas effectively.

here is a link showing the 8,8cm deck guns both period photos and surviving examples. Toward the end of the film are photos of a gun which I believe is in Jersey museum. This gun has both sights in place and both gun and sights were fully restored after being recovered from the sea.
https://youtu.be/-9o4OXs9vOs

here is another clip showing the deck gun in action....this is a 10,5cm deck gun
https://youtu.be/JyCL6c0Sb_g

regards Kev
 
My research is ongoing regarding finding out more about the sights, such as how they were stored when not in use? etc... but that is all part of the fun of collecting.

I know this isnt ordnance, but it is connected in some way.......I hope that members enjoy the thread

Enjoying the thread? Absolutely!

I would guess that a large number of members have "expanded" interests across the Militaria spectrum apart from just ordnance, especially when interesting items like this pop up.

If you have an interest in German Military Optics, then you should get a copy of Hans Seeger's "Fernglaser und Fernrohre" (ISBN 3-00-000457-2). Dr Seeger is regarded as the SME (Subject Matter Expert) on German Military optics and I'm sure he would be happy to answer any queries. I contacted him quite a few years back now and he kindly provided some excellent information on an early (and very rare) Carl Zeiss artillery "scissor" scope (rabbit ears) that I had.

Cheers
Drew

BTW - the book is written in German, however the photo captions are in English - and there's plenty of photos.
 
Enjoying the thread? Absolutely!

I would guess that a large number of members have "expanded" interests across the Militaria spectrum apart from just ordnance, especially when interesting items like this pop up.

If you have an interest in German Military Optics, then you should get a copy of Hans Seeger's "Fernglaser und Fernrohre" (ISBN 3-00-000457-2). Dr Seeger is regarded as the SME (Subject Matter Expert) on German Military optics and I'm sure he would be happy to answer any queries. I contacted him quite a few years back now and he kindly provided some excellent information on an early (and very rare) Carl Zeiss artillery "scissor" scope (rabbit ears) that I had.

Cheers
Drew

BTW - the book is written in German, however the photo captions are in English - and there's plenty of photos.

Hi Drew,
During my research on this sight I have come across many references to Hans Seegers 'Grey book' on Optics - I think it is regarded as somewhat of a bible.
I also saw that he is bringing out a new book........in green!! http://www.lindemanns.de/shop/fotob...--seeger-zeiss-handfernglaeser-1919--1946.php

these books look fantastic
(and thanks for the comments)

regards Kev
 
Hi Kev

Thank you for the link - as I have it on my low priority list to purchase the 2nd Volume...............they are indeed the German Optical Bibles..........

Cheers
Drew

BTW - Interesting link ...check out the "erotoic photography" section :tongue:

Remains me somewhat of Helmet Newton's "Sumo" bk
 
Hi Kev,thanks for links,a superb restoration job on that deck gun,from what I see when the deck gun is being used to shell the ship the range to the target/ship is not that great,I would have thought a more direct sight similar to a tank/anti tank gun would have been sufficient for short ranges and the more complicated sight used when the gun is being used to shell more distant targets,unless the sight you have had that short range point and shoot facility incorporated in it,with the sub and the target ship rising and falling with the swell it must have been a bit tricky to lay the gun and hit the target,they did hit the targets and sink ships so it must have worked well enough,
Fascinating,many thanks for posting,once again on this great site I have learned something new and interesting about a subject I had not even considered,
Regards,
Don,
 
Hi Kev,thanks for links,a superb restoration job on that deck gun,from what I see when the deck gun is being used to shell the ship the range to the target/ship is not that great,I would have thought a more direct sight similar to a tank/anti tank gun would have been sufficient for short ranges and the more complicated sight used when the gun is being used to shell more distant targets,unless the sight you have had that short range point and shoot facility incorporated in it,with the sub and the target ship rising and falling with the swell it must have been a bit tricky to lay the gun and hit the target,they did hit the targets and sink ships so it must have worked well enough,
Fascinating,many thanks for posting,once again on this great site I have learned something new and interesting about a subject I had not even considered,
Regards,
Don,

Hi Don,

I do believe the sight was used during combat as the film shows below. The gun cerainly would be more effective at close range, and I think the U-boat was set up for close combat but I am not sure of the average range used to attack, but this was also the downfall of the deck gun. If the enemy merchant ship had a 4inch gun mounted you wouldnt wish to get too close to risk being hit and unable to dive - the ability to dive was critical for the U-boats. (it would also be wise not to take too much notice of the film footage as distance to target as no doubt this is propaganda footage and in reality target distance may have been greater than shown) - I will have to look into this, more questions to answer! LOL!!

in the clip posted earlier in the thread for instance you can see the aimer and layer quite clearly looking through the optical sight during the firing of the gun. (I have done some screenshots below to show what I mean - circled in red - (for discussion only)) here is the link again, if you look at the photos below and then at the clip again you will see what I mean https://youtu.be/JyCL6c0Sb_g

also interesting to note is the forward speed of the U-boat, it appears to cancel out a little of the roll in the heavy swell that otherwise may hamper targeting?

I thought the guns would only be used in flat seas, but it appears that on occasions they were used in not so calm seas - hence the fact that the aimer, layer and gunner could be strapped into their positions - the rest of the crew bringing up ammunition wore life jackets - the risk of falling overboard being very real!!

One thing I ought to add is the fact that the commander was always in charge of the firing of the gun, he not only ordered the firing, he also allocated the number of rounds to be fired at the target. When told to stop firing no further rounds were used. The commander was always present during firing at his position in the conning tower.
Also interesting is that the used cases were not thrown overboard but kept inside the Uboat, all rounds used had to be accounted for on return to base !!

regards Kev

firing 1.jpg firing 2.jpg firing 3.jpg firing 4.jpg
 
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Hi Kev. I have for my own 8,8cm Flak 18/37 an optical sight which was stored in a container in the gun mount. However I believe your sight was stored inside the U-boat as it is quite sensitive to humidity.

Very nice found, congratulations.
 
Hi Kev. I have for my own 8,8cm Flak 18/37 an optical sight which was stored in a container in the gun mount. However I believe your sight was stored inside the U-boat as it is quite sensitive to humidity.

Very nice found, congratulations.

Hi Reino,

thank you for your comments.

I have been told that the sight was kept in a locker located to the forward end of the conning tower. I do not know if the locker was pressurised or just waterproof and am having difficulty in finding out any further information. It is clear that the sights would need to be in a place that was quick access so they could be mounted quickly, but how they were stored I have yet to find out. It is certainly a heavy sight, weighing over 12kg and appears to be made of bronze. There are plenty of photos showing the sights mounted in position and it would appear that as the U-boat spent much time on the surface at least one sight was left mounted, though in some cases as the photo I posted earlier both sights are in position.

regards Kev
 
Hi Kev,"The swine are shooting back"how unsporting of them,LoL,I see from the film exactly what you mean about the speed of the UBoat cancelling out the effect of the waves so making a fairly stable gun platform,it was quite hectic on deck during firing of the deck gun,no wonder the aimers were strapped into their positions,I am assuming the captain was in a better position high up on the conning tower to see fall of shot and effect on the target,something else to ponder,were the shells passed up in a continuous chain or were they passed up as needed one at at time,if the order came to crash dive while the chain was full of ammunition on its way up would have to be reversed and the ammunition be passed back down to be stowed taking up precious time,I am assuming it would not take long to stow the deck gun to its locked position ready for diving should the need arise,food for thought,
Cheers,
Don,
 
Hi Kev,"The swine are shooting back"how unsporting of them,LoL,I see from the film exactly what you mean about the speed of the UBoat cancelling out the effect of the waves so making a fairly stable gun platform,it was quite hectic on deck during firing of the deck gun,no wonder the aimers were strapped into their positions,I am assuming the captain was in a better position high up on the conning tower to see fall of shot and effect on the target,something else to ponder,were the shells passed up in a continuous chain or were they passed up as needed one at at time,if the order came to crash dive while the chain was full of ammunition on its way up would have to be reversed and the ammunition be passed back down to be stowed taking up precious time,I am assuming it would not take long to stow the deck gun to its locked position ready for diving should the need arise,food for thought,
Cheers,
Don,

I'm not sure about the process regarding the ammunition, and no doubt things changed during the course of the war; early on for instance when targeting isolated merchant shipping with little or no allied air cover was a whole whole different ball game to that when targetting a vessel that was armed, could put up a fight and with the risk of aerial attack.
Regarding the deck gun, to properly store it, it had to be swung back to its position in line with the U-boat (for streamlining- I presume it was locked in this position). A bung had to be inserted into the muzzle of the weapon - there was a storage place for this in front of the gun mount and it had a securing rope attatched to prevent it being accidentally lost over the side. Also I believe a seal was placed in the breach end too. The U shaped brackets for the layer also were swung inwards, but this wasnt an essential requirement. In an emergency all this of course could be dispensed with, and would just have the effect of more work later - I am sure the ultimate safety of the U-boat was No1 priority. I have read of instances where even the gun crew had to take their chances when the U-boat sealed the hatches and dived...........surfacing later to pick them up - but goes to show that it could happen if the U-boat was caught napping!! (it must however be remembered that I am no expert in this field and would need to prove that such instances took place rather than just believing everything on the net, but it does seem feasible given the vunerability of the U-boats)

It certainly is interesting to learn more about things that you have never considered before, half the fun is finding out new things!!

regards Kev
 
Here is another photograph that I now have showing the sight. I am not sure if the U-boat has just surfaced or is just experiencing rough seas, it is however a good illustration of the gun sight positioned for use.

gun in water - Copy.JPG
 
I have a copy of Zeiss catalogue from 1937. Among many other things there are pages of several different U-boat sights. All of these pages say that the sights may be left in place for diving.
 
I have a copy of Zeiss catalogue from 1937. Among many other things there are pages of several different U-boat sights. All of these pages say that the sights may be left in place for diving.

This is very interesting.
So it would appear that the sights were designed to be left on the gun.
Perhaps sometime during the course of the war it became necessary to remove them when possible to prevent damage from the depth charges. (It would make sense to protect the optics).
It makes me more curious about the locker/lockers' at the front of the conning tower that someone mentioned were for the storage of the sights. I read that they were removed because they were vunerable in depth charge attack (this makes a lot of sense). Its the configuration of these lockers that intrigues me. Located outside the pressurised hull, just how were they stored to prevent damage, or, could simply putting them into an airtight locker offer just that bit more protection?
Having said all this a thought has just occured to me, the periscope is an optical device, its position leads it also to vunerablitly - I know it retracts, but how far - the same goes for the 'sky periscope' . Perhaps I need to look at how these systems worked. A gunsight out of action may be 'limiting' a periscope out of action and the U-boat is pretty much useless!

lots of food for thought - dont you just love our hobby!!!

regards Kev
 
In Zeiss catalogue are 10 different U-boat sights. Unfortunately the one Kev has is not included.

I can admit that all data sheets say that the sights can withstand 15 Bar water pressure ( 150 meters depth )!
 
In Zeiss catalogue are 10 different U-boat sights. Unfortunately the one Kev has is not included.

I can admit that all data sheets say that the sights can withstand 15 Bar water pressure ( 150 meters depth )!

It is quite something to have the ability to withstand this pressure. It is much more than just being waterproof!!

Kev
 
here is a link to the Carl Zeiss virtual museum. Unfortunately all in German, however it describes the sight I have and I believe the photos are taken from an original manual. I am lucky in that it mainly features the right handed sight like mine, but in the first photograph you can see the identical left moutned sight (they are a virtual mirror image of each other).

http://www.archive.zeiss.de/zeig.FAU?sid=1A87191618&dm=3&ind=3&ipos=2574

regards Kev
 
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Hi Kev,several points of interest for your opinion,firstly,would the deck gunsight be pressurised which would help to keep out seawater during submerged running or would this make them more vulnerable during a depthcharge attack,secondly,I found a site www.uboataces.com,which is quite informative with lots of photos,it also states that there were some rounds stored in a ready locker at the base of the conning tower then there was a chain of men handing the rounds up form the storage locker under the command deck below the conning tower,which did it seems interfere with the crash dive sequence and made it much slower,and there were no rangefinder facility so the UBoat had to get in fairly close which must have been interesting on a pitching rolling deck,
Cheers,
Don,
 
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