WWII German Canister (Karttschen)?

[marty_01]

Hello Everyone:

I'm searching for images or information on German 7,5cmL24 Canister Ammunition (Karttschen) used by KwK and/or Stuk cannons (tank and assault gun). I came across a very brief snippet in a German 75mmL24 Merkblatt for a canister cartridge. But -- unlike other rounds detalied in typical Merkblatt -- there is zero detail provided for the canister round.

No canister round appears on Dattenblatte for the 7,5cmL24, nor does it appear in WWII Gechoringbuch for the 7,5cmL24 (Stuk or KwK). It does not seem to appear in any wartime or post-war studies produced by the USA or UK on German ammunition and Ordnance.

Does anyone know if the Germans actually produced a canister round for the 75mmL24 during WWII?

Thanks much for any information on this subject.

Best Regards
Marty

 

[marty_01]

correction to my above post. the reference to 7,5cm Kanister does not appear anywhere in the German Merblatt or Dattenblatt for the 7,5cmL24 KwK and Stuk cannons. The only primary source I have found that references the round is a German WWII tech manual on explosive ammunition. "Zusammenstellung der Explosivstoffgewichte fur deutsche Munition" dated: vom 1.4.44

 

[Tmine35]

Never say never, but I have quite a bunch of German WW2 ammo manuals and can't find any 7,5 cm canister shell in them.
If you have the mentioned manual, could you please scan the text and post here so I can read what it exactly says.

 

[sudelmuk]

Hello Reino,
just sent you the 7,5cm-related part (four sheets) of this Merkblatt via e-mail.

 

[Fjordhouse]

If you have the late war time version, its inside, never seen one, but when it is the book, it has produced, Ben

 

[marty_01]

If you have the late war time version, its inside, never seen one, but when it is the book, it has produced, Ben

Yes, my 7,5cmL24 merblatt is dated 1939 (no canister mentioned). I also have a 1942 german ammunition handbook which includes detailed descriptions of all Stuk and Kwk ammunition -- including 75mmL24 ammunition types -- but no canister round is mentioned there either. Is there a later version of the 75mmL24 Merkblatt?

Someone asked about the Explosive ammunition manual reference I mentioned above. Here is the table of interest: The canister round cite is next to the red dot.

http://img214.imageshack.us/i/11111zz.jpg/
(from: "Zusammenstellung der Explosivstoffgewichte fur deutsche Munition")

my assumption -- based upon the scarcity of evidence on this projectile -- is that it must have been relatively rare. but who the heck really knows.

 

[Tmine35]

Yes, 7,5cm Kt Patr KWK is indeed mentioned in the above mentioned manual.
Interesting that H.Dv.481/58 dated 16.10.44 "Merkblatt fr die Munition der 7,5cm Sturmkanone 40 und 7,5cm Kampfwagenkanone 40" does not say one word about it. Neither D 460/1+ dated 6.43 "Geschossringbuch 1 - 3" . However in Geschossringbuch there are drawings of 7,7cm , 10,5cm and 15cm canister shells.

 

[Fjordhouse]

I think that they have made canistar rounds, in 1944, because they needed an other kind of Ammo, The Russians were coming with high numbers, so there was need for an other kind of ammo. i can be wrong, but the KWK 7,5 cm was a good Cannon, and many were produced.

 

[Tmine35]

Geschossringbuch has a separate index page for each caliber listing all different shells of that caliber. There are several modifications on some shells and additions and correspondingly several dates on the index.
-The page where 7,7cm Kt is, has only one date: 7.39
-The page with 10,5cm Kt has several dates, first 3.39 and last 2.42
-The page with 15cm Kt the same, first 5.40 and last 6.43

These Kt-shells are quite in the beginning of each index and thus not added at a later stage but possibly have been there already on the first date?

-The page for 7,5cm shells ( where Kt does not exist ) has first date 3.39 and last 6.43. However 2 lines on index and corresponding drawings have been removed between these dates.
It would be interesting to know which shells have been taken out of production in the meantime. Was Kt possibly one of them or why it is not there?
In 4.44 dated explosives manual it exists. If it was developed first in 1944 it's natural that it does not exist in last time 6.43 dated manual.
However all the other canister shells did exist in 39-40 already, why not 7,5cm which though was one of the major German calibers?
A lot of questions open:smile:

 

[marty_01]

I think that they have made canistar rounds, in 1944, because they needed an other kind of Ammo, The Russians were coming with high numbers, so there was need for an other kind of ammo. i can be wrong, but the KWK 7,5 cm was a good Cannon, and many were produced.

which is also odd as the numbers of tanks & assault guns equipped with the short 75mmL24 would have been relatively limited\rare by this time of the war. The short 75mm gun was considerably more prevelant on tanks & assault guns spanning the years of 1939 through 1942.

anyway, I'm dropping off into speculation now.

what I was hoping to lay hands on was perhaps production figures or even expenditure figures for the ammunition type. for those with a copy of Hahn, you'll notice he doesnt provide any production or expenditure figures for kanister. but he does provide that same sort of information for just about every other odd bit of German ammunition.

 

[Gspragge]

Could it be that

There was an approved design which was officially adopted, but was never
put into production, but the design was there ready if needed on short notice.
If these were made somebody would have one someplace. There might be prototypes, a pattern round or a few trial rounds but perhaps that's all.

 

[Tmine35]

Here drawings of 77mm, 105mm and 150mm canister shells from D 460/1+ ... 460/2a+ "Geschossringbuch 1-3, 1939 ", updated version 6.43.

Nothing about 75mm canister shell is mentioned in this manual, which I wonder very much as a lot of different artillery was made in 75mm caliber.

 

[marty_01]

Thanks very much for all of your replies. The experimental round explanation makes sense.

I've actually been curious about existence or non-existence of 75mmL24 Kanister round for years. Reference to it appeared in a secondary source years ago -- an article written in a long forgotten magazine by M.Diehl about German Panzer & Assault Gun ammunition. But I have never found reference to it in any primary sources -- German field manuals of the period, German ammuntion handbuchs -- vehicle weapon handbuchs (kwk or Stuk), dattenblatte, schusstafeln, etc. That is aside from the Explosive ordnance manual I had already mentioned. Unfortunately trying to figure if something did not exist can be considerably more difficult than figuring out if something did exist. So I guess it will remain a bit of a conundrum for me :tinysmile_fatgrin_t