105mm BE Smoke query

[ydnum303]

Hi All,
Browsing the web recently, and found this picture. The proj in the centre purports to be a 105mm FD Coloured Smoke, but if so, why is it white, with a yellow-over-green filling band? All the textbooks I have seen say that this proj should be a pale green (eau-de-nil) colour, with a red filling band. I have seen another projectile painted the same (which apparently came from a military depot, and was fitted with an inert instructional fuze). The other projs in the picture appear to be in their correct liveries, so why is the subject one painted the way it is? The photo is of part of an "official" collection, by the way.

Thanks in advance,

Roger.

 

[gerrythebomb]

[HiRoger,
The colour is correct for this shell as its not smoke, this is a marker shell and is filled with powder just uses a Illum body with a base plate when it hits the deck blast all the coloured powder out the back (makes a hell of a mess!!!)

 

[spotter]

The colours are correct for the 105 marker round, white overall body colour with a yellow band for the HE content and the light green (eau-de-nil) band indicates a smoke producing role ,The round in your image the L37A2 is for Red smoke , the marking CCC is on the body in the same colour of what smoke colour is produced
Its NOT a base eject smoke round ,,the round is designed to provide a burst of coloured smoke and dye to indicate targets etc The main filling is in two parts the front a mixture of HE,wax and dye,the rear part consists of only wax and dye.
The projectile functions much like the HE rounds but does not fragment ,on impact the dye in the HE causes a coloured smoke and colours the ground around the point of impact.

 

[gerrythebomb]

Interesting just checked the sales info on this round and its the same as the round i have just sold same designation but no HE filling just fitted with RDX/WX8 exploder and using a direct action L106 fuze so on impact on the floor it fires the cloud of dust out the back as previously said what a mess i watched these used at 2 Miles for an airstrike on a closed doors firepower demonstration and it made a bigger mess than the sneb rockets!!!

 

[spotter]

The tech info i have albeit a getting a bit dated now from 2004 has the following extracts regarding the L37A2
the canned exploder...151g RDX/WX8 in compressed form
Main filling composition forward of the driving band... 1.19kg PETN/WAX/DYE in the form of pre pressed pellets
The secondary filling which is separated from the main fill by millboard discs...254g pellet of WAX/DYE
Fuzes listed as compatible for it are L32,,L85/L112,,L106 and L116

 

[ydnum303]

Gentlemen, that is great info, for which many thanks.
Can I ask when the Marker shell was introduced, and whether it was painted white from the start? The two reference documents I have are:
The 1960s Joint Services Projectile Marking, which does not refer to a Marking shell, only "Coloured Burst", which was to be painted dark green at the front, and sea green at the rear; and BE coloured smoke, which was all sea green. The only white shells were Star, Illuminating, or Flare.

My other reference is DEF STAN 00-810 of August 2006, which refers to Coloured Marker, but says it is painted eau-de-nil!

The changes in markings and colours is rather confusing (well, it confuses me, but not the experts, obviously).

Many thanks,
Roger.

 

[pippomela699]

Hello, i'm now restoring a WW2 US 105mm round.
I have the shell type M84 ( base ejectyon type used for illuminatimg or propaganda ) and seperqick fuze M54
I need informations for colours and markings for this two type of ammo.

Thanks

Fabio

 

[Gunnerwho?]

105mm Coloured marker shells (Red and Orange) were introduced with Abbot in the mid 1960s. The OP pic shows the marker as the same size and shape as L31 HE and the BE smoke shell, this is a bit of a clue. However, the Illum shell is the M1 size and shape, this shell was first used in Borneo in early 1966 fired by Pack How, it's a Bofors design and the first deliveries were packed 4 shells in a zinc lined box.

 

[flak18]

Hello all....quite a mystery this. As Spotter and others have said and as can be seen from the original picture, the white shell in question is a MARKER shell, not Smoke. It is quite clearly stencilled as a MARKER shell. Yes, SMOKE shells are eau de nil in colour and the hazard band is brown, not red. The bands were red when the Smoke shells were painted Brunswick green and that was when the HE shells were yellow.
Now for the interesting part. The ILUM (not my spelling) shell in the photo is one supplied by Bofors, as Gunnerwho rightly states. Supplied because the 105mm Fd had no Illuminating ammunition.. (what were the Government doing ??). So it filled the gap nicely, even if the fuzes were a little strange. However, the ILUM shells supplied and fired in Borneo in 1966 from the L5 Pack How were different to the ones in the photo...they had 105mm How driving bands which are narrower than the bands on 105 Fd rounds.
But, 105mm How already had an Illuminating projectile. It is the flat based M314. So, why the need to supply this strange projectile ??
In an attempt to standardise the ammunition for 105mm How, M1 ammo that is, a new family of projectiles was introduced in the 1960's. They were called the T107 family and all weighed and ranged as close to each other as possible. Gunners were tired of constantly having to alter the settings on their weapons so shells that were very similar in weight and shape were very welcome. Hence the T107 family. I have a War Office manual dated 1960 that describes these shells. There were M84 BE SMOKE T107, ,Illuminating T107 and BE Leaflet M107 shells.... all designed to range the same as the M1 HE shell..
So, I think the shells Gunnerwho refers to must have been the T107 Illum shell. I have one of these in a very rough state and wonder if there are others out there. It weighs 3 lbs more than the standard BE Smoke. Anyone know more about this family of shells ? Sorry to have bored you all. My little obsession.

 

[flak18]

Hi All....nothing on T107 105mm shells ????

 

[Gunnerwho?]

UK never adopted the US pattern 105mm Illum, presumably the Bofors was better for their needs. They are still using the Bofors having just ordered a modified design (both white and black light versions) that uses the new Diehl electronic time fuze (L166 IIRC). I don't think they ever used the US 155mm Illum either, just as they never used the US 155mm BE smoke. The Illum and BE smk produced for FH70 were presumably superior and could be used with M109A1 and subsequently AS90. The only slight drawback with the original Bofors Illum was the DIXI MT fuze with a vernier scale, which meant it couldn't be used with the standard fuze setter. The thing about US arty ammo is that its cheap, and you pay for what you get, but lots of armies aren't too concerned about effects, they prefer cheap and nasty. Eg 105mm HE L31 (never mind the newer) vs M1 or 155mm L15 vs M107.

Never heard of T107. When UK adopted 105mm Fd in the mid-60s it was a completely new separate loading ammo family designed to meet UK requirements, originally used with Abbot and today with L118, with newer even longer shell shape (same weight, ie thinner walls and more HE), BAe recently finished qualification firings with the new L53 HE that uses their ROWANEX (a PBX). They're also testing a similar new 155mm L28 to replace L15 and a RP smoke shell (the 105mm version (L52?) has been in service for a few years). Even the navy is getting in on the act with a new 4.5-inch PBX shell.

 

[flak18]

Thanks Gunnerwho....nice answer. I assumed the UK automatically adopted the much used US Illum ammo. Explains a lot. So, Bofors made Illum projectiles for both the 105mm How and 105mm Fd....narrow and wide driving bands. Keep up the good work...SOOOOOO much info on here.