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105mm HEP inert round?
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I hope I can make some comments without appearing to be too critical. Several years as a explosives, weapons and range safety officer won't let me overlook this post. While the identification may be correct, a BLACK projectile means "armor defeating" and a white band means "illumination"; Neither of which could be interpreted as meaning "inert." But what I think may deserve a comment is that "learning" ammunition identification from a web site and making "guesses" about potential lethal filler seems to go against both my training and seemingly the spirit and intent of this site. No doubt, lots of great information is posted here, and equally certain is that lots of things can be learned from the wonderful "world wide web"; However, I would hope that we would not post things that could lead someone to think that they could actually handle munitions with unverified identities.
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So in a few words, what exactly are you trying to say?
Begin with this
http://navyadministration.tpub.com/14067/css/Ammunition-Color-Coding-160.htm
Tabel refer to the NATO color codes WITHOUT the lettering code !
Black is effective what you call "armor defeating" but in lettering, black or white mean nothing !
So, different markings (manufacturer, specifications of the buyer,...) may explain the same thing !
Example a HEP-HESH shell may be full black (ATk) with Yellow band or yellow lettering (HE) OR can be Olive drab, black band (ATk) with yellow lettering (HE), OR .........
Yoda
http://navyadministration.tpub.com/14067/css/Ammunition-Color-Coding-160.htm
Tabel refer to the NATO color codes WITHOUT the lettering code !
Black is effective what you call "armor defeating" but in lettering, black or white mean nothing !
So, different markings (manufacturer, specifications of the buyer,...) may explain the same thing !
Example a HEP-HESH shell may be full black (ATk) with Yellow band or yellow lettering (HE) OR can be Olive drab, black band (ATk) with yellow lettering (HE), OR .........
Yoda
Are you sure that is a white band? Sometimes the colors change over time and exposure to different light and elements. I ask because it looks like possibly a faded yellow to me.
Joe
Joe
I received the 105mm today. Rather beat up, steel case alittle rusty, looks like polished steel, but no dents- heavy. The projectile is indeed dark OD, with a yellow band. Nicely crimped into place. The head stamp is worn, however interesting. Stamping: " Dummy Cartridge, Lot FA-E- X603, 5, M-57 FOR M68 Gun, 105MM M148E4B1". The large 1" electric penciled markings " D-1-1". M-57 is puzzling, Internet makes reference to the M57 gun, used in the Israeli Sherman and some French tanks. If it is a foreign round, why the US style markings? All comments and info appreciated.
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Markings on military equipment can always be a challenge. If Israel purchased the guns from the U.S. they would need to be tested before shipment to Israel. That would mean dummy rounds and test firing. In addition, military equipment sometimes is used in a "sterile" condition, meaning that whoever is using it for a mission, doesn't use equipment with markings from their country. They use equipment that is manufactured and marked with another country's ID.
I am puzzled with the marking " M57 for M68 Gun". If it is loaded to M57 specs, why would it be marked for use in a US M68 Gun?
I noticed this round has no driving band showing as the US 105mm HEP-T round does, the driving bands are under the crimp. An oddity, obviously for the M57 gun in the French AMX and Super Sherman? Can anyone post pictures of this round and add some info?....I was able to check with the seller, her husband bought it from a collectors estate from Petersburg, Va more than 20 years ago.
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Coming in late to the discussion, I would offer a couple of comments -
Taber is correct in that black is used for armor defeating rounds, from AP projectiles to the LAW rocket. Yoda is also correct. However, our color codes have changed several times over the years, and black paint with white markings was used during the 40s-50s for training/display munitions. I'm at work with a new computer and don't yet have Photoshop installed so pardon the quality of the photo, but here is a crop from a shelf picture including
three common training projos. Two of them are admittedly AP, but the third you can see is an M64 75mm WP. There are many more examples of this color combination used in this way, but that one is the closest to hand.
Second comment, in your first photo of this chain; 137742, there is a second projectile. Nothing too special, but I like to call attention to it because it appears to be another WWI German 17cm naval round. I forget the designation, but we have discussed previously. No one is completely sure why, but these are very common in Michigan, Indiana, Ohio - I have had as many as 5, I've seen 4 more in MI, and just recently saw two more in Oklahoma. Often misidentified, I've seen them often mistaken as 175mm, the last two were identified as US navy 6-inch. If my assessment of the photo is correct I'd be interested to know how yours was described?
Last point, be very cautious what you purchase from folks on some of the sites. Many of the people have no idea what they have or what hazards they may represent. They may, in good faith, pass to you something identified as safe which in fact may not be. Case in point, in your third picture (Army 3) in the lower right you have three 20mm fuzes (M55?) which have the appearance of live items with the det/booster still present. These may very well be inert, but not knowing your level of experience or training I would recommend caution, both from a safety and a legal perspective.
Taber is correct in that black is used for armor defeating rounds, from AP projectiles to the LAW rocket. Yoda is also correct. However, our color codes have changed several times over the years, and black paint with white markings was used during the 40s-50s for training/display munitions. I'm at work with a new computer and don't yet have Photoshop installed so pardon the quality of the photo, but here is a crop from a shelf picture including
three common training projos. Two of them are admittedly AP, but the third you can see is an M64 75mm WP. There are many more examples of this color combination used in this way, but that one is the closest to hand.
Second comment, in your first photo of this chain; 137742, there is a second projectile. Nothing too special, but I like to call attention to it because it appears to be another WWI German 17cm naval round. I forget the designation, but we have discussed previously. No one is completely sure why, but these are very common in Michigan, Indiana, Ohio - I have had as many as 5, I've seen 4 more in MI, and just recently saw two more in Oklahoma. Often misidentified, I've seen them often mistaken as 175mm, the last two were identified as US navy 6-inch. If my assessment of the photo is correct I'd be interested to know how yours was described?
Last point, be very cautious what you purchase from folks on some of the sites. Many of the people have no idea what they have or what hazards they may represent. They may, in good faith, pass to you something identified as safe which in fact may not be. Case in point, in your third picture (Army 3) in the lower right you have three 20mm fuzes (M55?) which have the appearance of live items with the det/booster still present. These may very well be inert, but not knowing your level of experience or training I would recommend caution, both from a safety and a legal perspective.
Hazord, none that I can see, I had already examined it with a 10x magnifying glass. The green OD paint is rather thick, and down to bare metal in spots, no trace of blue or black color. It appears to be an old repaint. I have a M393A2 in a brass M150 case that was repainted ( but not fully crimped) and can see what you are talking about were to look. See picture of my repainted round. This drill round I am sure is an authentic drill round as the projectile is firmly crimped in place with that double crimp...and about 45 lbs. I believe the crimp would be hard to duplicate, especially on a steel fired case....in fact I would love to be able to duplicate that crimp as I often see M393A2 HEP projectiles for sale, the M150 cases alittle bit harder to find but out there. As the case headstamp is marked Dummy for the M68 Gun I have reached the conclusion this is a repainted dummy. I had bought it as such and to display next to my repainted M393 HEP in brass case. I will add I was able to clean up the dummy case by etching it in phosphoric acid ( 30 minutes with a 50 percent solution)and reapplying three coats of lacquer. The results were amazing.
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The phosphoric acid brand I used " Antox" is from an old welding job, some really, really nasty stuff but gives better results than any Home Depot diluted consumer safe crap being sold. I hope the three coats of lacquer ( Min wax brand) will keep it sealed for some time. As for my method, I scrubbed down the case with water after 30 minutes of phosphoric acid with a red scotch bright pad to give it the right non gloss appearance.
