12cm unknown

[tnor_fr]

Hello,

Acquired recently, this 12cm projectile from the north-east of france.
It is covered with a red anti-rust paint.
The height is 37cm and the diameter of the fuze is about 4.7cm.
The diameter is 11,8cm.
At first, i was thinking about a 12.5cm sprenggranate L / 3 but the dimensions are different.
However, the bottom is identical.
Any idea ?
Thank you.

 

[Hoeksel]

EDIT (I read 35 cm high, I thought of M1878 French 120 MM but TS writes 37 cm high)

 

[tnor_fr]

Thx Hoeksel, i also looked in my french domunentation but the measures and the form are different.
I post photos with measurements.

 

[Alpini]

could it be a W50 x 1/8" fuze thread (Withworth 50 mm diameter, 8 tpi)? I think it's a Krupp export shel. The screwed base with a lead sealing ring is very typical for them. I don't know most belgian shells but if I am right about the fuze thread size it remembers me much about the belgian fuze thread for t&p fuzes (long range with three rings) of this time.

 

[tnor_fr]

Thank you Alpini,
I carried out the measurements again and indeed the diameter of the rocket is well of 50mm.
The pitch is 3.00 with my gauge.
This projectile is very strange because it comes from a farm near Sarrebourg (Moselle 57) where it was there long before the Second World War. He only told me he was a german projectile.

 

[Alpini]

yes, then it is a Krupp W50 x 1/8" thread (1/8" pitch is 3,175 mm). The thread is the root for the later german M50x3 which was just converted to the nearest pitch in the metric system.

 

[tnor_fr]

Do i have a chance to find the good fuze for this projectile ? a Dopp Z s/26 or 43 will be fine ? or an exotic model ?
Thx

 

[Alpini]

...no, fuzes like S/26 or S/43 are to small and of wrong shape. Before we don't have an 100% identification it's hard to say which is the correct fuze. But I am pretty sure this thread is for Krupp fuzes with three time rings. The fuzes with three rings were normally used for projectiles beginning at 10 cm and larger and had normally 35 seconds range but it's also possible to see S/43 fuzes on large shells. The shape of the 35 sec fuzes is the same like this 50 sec fuze:

 

[MINENAZ16]

Hello,

Your shell really really looks like a Dutch 12cm shell !

Regards

Doc :
length without fuze : 368mm
base to band : 38mm
band : 12mm
same band design
screwed base
Krupp design fuze Tsb No7

 

[Hoeksel]

The shown Dutch projectile is for the Dutch 12 cm L/14 Krupp howitzer. I have found Swedish made (Skultuna Bruk) export cases for The Netherlands for this howitzer in France. Most likely used by the Germans as Beute.

 

[Alpini]

How can it be "Beute" when the Netherlands was not occupied in 1st WW?

Do you know when this gun was introduced in dutch service? Maybe there's a different explanation.

 

[Hoeksel]

I mean WW2 Beute, it was still in service. Introduced in 1908. I was looking and see now we had Krupp L/12 and Bofors L/14.

 

[Hoeksel]

[h=3]Specifications 12 lang 12[/h]

Manufacturer:	Krupp (Germany)
Model [Dutch registration]:	12 lang 12 (12hwL12; 12.12)
Calibre:	120 mm (barrel length 1440 mm)
Fire rate:	2 rounds per minute, max 5 minutes
Elevation / traverse:	0°/+45° ; traverse 0°
Undercarriage:	Scooped, with sectional cradle
Muzzle velocity V0:	300 m/s
Ammunition types:	HE and HE canister (20,4 kg)
Weight:	Gun:	1.177 kg
	Barrel:	470 kg
Traction:	4 heavy duty or 6 regular horses
Max. range:	5.800 m.
Crew:	6 men plus commander
Year of introduction:	1908
Number available in May 1940:	10

[h=3]Specifications 12 lang 14[/h]

Manufacturer:	Bofors (Sweden)
Model [Dutch registration]:	12 lang 14 (12hwL14; 12.14)
Calibre:	120 mm (barrel length 1725 mm)
Fire rate:	3 rounds per minute, max 5 minutes
Elevation / traverse:	0°/+45° ; traverse 0°
Undercarriage:	Scooped, with sectional cradle
Muzzle velocity V0:	300 m/s
Ammunition types:	HE and HE canister (20,4 kg)
Weight:	Gun:	1.610 kg
Traction:	4 heavy duty or 6 regular horses
Max. range:	6.100 m.
Crew:	6 men plus commander
Year of introduction:	1908
Number available in May 1940:	48
Remarks:	Fitted with 5 mm thick armoured shield.

 

[tnor_fr]

Thank you all for your expertise.
The correct fuze No. 7 is this one? found on the site of the Dutch national military museum of Holland.

( https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-collectie/detail/292772/ )

 

[MINENAZ16]

Thank you all for your expertise.
The correct fuze No. 7 is this one? found on the site of the Dutch national military museum of Holland.
View attachment 136725
( https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-collectie/detail/292772/ )

yes it is.

 

[greif]

There is a sole survivor of the 12 cm L14 howitser in the Dutch National Military Museum. It is registered as a divergent model and made by Krupp. Could the German Army also have used this model in WW1?