18pdr headstamp questions

[Darkman]

I have a few questions about 18pdr cart headstamps and a few interesting markings to show.

1. I have been told that a broad arrow inside a D is an Australian acceptance mark, like the later D↑D for Department of Defence, but why then is it on this British case with no other later Australian re-work marks? Can anybody confirm the origin of the ↑ inside a D? Refer photo 1.

2. Photo 2 shows a case possibly converted to a blank by Australian factory MC in 1928 (MC in this context is Maribyrnong, Melbourne - not to be confused with the later WW2 MC Finsbury, Adelaide SA). Were all British blanks stamped on the base? Also does anybody know what the MK I ** means?

3. Photo 3 shows a case with a maker stamp M.A.C. N - with the N a much lighter stamping. I have previously been advised that MAC stood variously for Montreal Ammunition Co. and MacFarlane Electrical Co. London. But this case does not have the 3 letter Canadian lot number code, has no other Canadian acceptance marks and has full stops after each letter, so implies separate words. Who was maker M.A.C. and what is the significance of the extra N sometimes seen?

4. Photos 3 and 3a also show a primer maker “WFC Ltd” inside a bell - who was WFC Ltd?

5. Photos 3 and 5 of different cases show a mark comprised of the letter O with opposing broad arrows either side, and this mark then double barred out. Does anyone know the meaning of the mark and the presumably later barring?

6. The cases in photos 4 and 5 have primers made by “P.B & Co” - anyone know who this maker was?

7. Canadian makers. I believe the concentric maker stamp “Cco” was for Canadian Cartridge Co. Photos 4, 4a, 5, 5a and 6 show other Canadian maker stamps CCA or CAC, T Co C or CT Co, and CCS. Is anyone able to identify these makers? Is the CAC stamp the monogram for Canadian Allis-Chalmers?

8. Lastly I’m just showing the WW2 dated MK IV case made by Dominion Arsenal Canada in photo 7, not often seen.

Information on any of the above questions would be appreciated.

Thanks, Graeme

 

[TimG]

1. Until 1927 Australia didn’t have the equipment to make it’s own 18 PR cases. Thus cases were UK made and shipped to Australia. ‘D’ denotes Dominion of Australia.

2. Normally the case would be marked (silver nitrate) ‘Blank’ and stamped ‘R’ in the case history. Stamping it ‘Blank’ rather commits it to life thereafter as a Blank. There may be some reason that these cases were no longer suitable for full charge loading and thus condemned. Here Asterisks denote modification.

3. Montreal Ammunition Company. Ignore the ‘N’.

4. Western Electric Co., North Woolwich, London.

5. This mark denotes that the case had a repairable split and was barred out after brazing.

6. Platt Bros. & Co., Ltd., Hartford Works, Oldham.

7. CCO – Canadian Cartridge Company
TCO – Crosby & Co., New York. U.S.A.
CCS – Canadian Cartridge Company (Alternative)
Yes - CAC – Canadian Allis-Chalmers

TimG

 

[Darkman]

Wow. Thanks a lot Tim, you made short work of that!

Sorry to be a pain, but just a couple of queries:

1. British made case with Australian acceptance stamp. This still intrigues me a little as I'm not sure we had any 18pdr cartridge filling and shell crimping capabilities up until 1927 when we purchased surplus WW1 British 18pdr equipment. (Up until then I believe CAC made only small arms ammunition.) So I assume we imported complete or semi-complete 18pdr rounds. Would it be usual to stamp an acceptance mark like this on the base of a complete filled (but probably un-fuzed) round? These sort of acceptance marks I associate with manufacture of the bare cartridge case.

3. Montreal Ammunition Co - Canadian without the 3 letter lot code system?

7. TCO - Crosby and Co - American, even with the Canadian 3 letter lot code system?

Graeme

 

[TimG]

Graeme,

You're correct this acceptance stamp relates solely to the case. Poorly worded by me, complete rounds would have been shipped to Australia.

I have as yet to ascertain what these three letters signify. They appear to be date incremental and I think they may be some form of 'Lot' identification. There seems to be more cases with them than without them and they do appear on US made cases.

Tim

 

[kiwieod]

the CAC you see on small arms ammunition will be colonial ammunition company of new Zealand
also on small arms ammo DAC,dominion arsenal Canada,mostly .303

 

[Darkman]

the CAC you see on small arms ammunition will be colonial ammunition company of new Zealand

We also had a Colonial Ammunition Co. (headstamp CAC) in Footscray/Maribyrnong, Melbourne who made copious quantities of .303 ammunition, particularly during WW1. After WW1 they really struggled with the lack of demand and the government eventually bought them out, purchased surplus 18pdr manufacturing equipment from the UK and in 1927 commenced 18pdr manufacture as "MC" (Munitions at CAC?). This later became "MF" - Munitions Footscray.

 

[Dandebur]

Hello,
I can develop what I have or what I have seen. So all my affirmations could be preceded by "In my opinion" and most probably some are not complete.
I have sorted out Canadian manufacturers ( or American which have Canadian acceptance mark) in two groups ( with one exception).
First group: Those which use a combination of letters as lots, first one letter, then two and then three. In this group we find 6 manufacturers, CCC ( see your pict 9 lot KTQ), MDCo, CCA ( see your pict 5 lot BNZ), TCco ( your pict 7 lot ARV), EV&MCo and RSCo
Second group:Those which use a system of alphabets as lots, the first lot is 1A then 1B.....when the alphabet is ended the following is 2A...(1)
In this group we find 5 manufacturers, MAC or MAC.N( your pict 3 lot 221 Q), DCPC which has suceeded to MAC, MLW, CC&F and CPR.
At last the manufacturer DA as your pict 10 but dated 1916. This one has not used one of these two methods. That manufacturer is very rare, I have only one case, infortunaly "trench arted" and without primer, but it is the only one I have ever seen.
I will develop the manufactures CCC and MAC in other replies with the pictures.
(1) The English manufacturer RL used the same method except that the letter is before the lot number (your pict 2 the lot R8 is under the date 1905)
Regards,
Dandebur.

 

[Dandebur]

Hello,
I present you what I have and my deductions about the manufacturer CCC. It is my opinion and perhaps I am not right.
With taking in example the picture 9 of Darkman,I take in consideration the following things: The logo CCS, the lot KTQ, the date 26 4 17 ( for me it is the date of acceptance ) associated with the number of the inspector 6 in a circle.
At the beginning, the logo is CC, no combination of letters for the lot, the numbers of the inspectors are 1,2,3 together. The range I have is 21 5 15 (pic1); 10 7 15.
Then the inspectors 2 and 3 go away, it remains only the number 1, no lot, logo CC. The range I have is 28 7 15 (pic2); 30 7 15.
Then the letters for lot are introduced. I have only one lot NI, date 9 8 15, logo CC (pic 3).
Then the inspector 8 take place of the number 1, logo CC. The first lot I have is ARF, date 7 12 15 (pic 4), the last, I have, for 1915 is AZA but with the date 6 1 16.
In october a second line of production is created. The inspector is 6 and a S is introduced in the two C fort distinguish one apart the other. The first lot I have is D with the date 4 10 15 ( pic 5). The last I have for 1915 is AHK with the date 6 1 16.
At the end of 1915, the combinations of letters are very near one apart the other.
To be followed, years 1916 and 1917.
Regards,
Dandebur.

 

[Dandebur]

Hello,
CCC 1916-1917.
In 1916 it seems that the line of production with the number 8 has stopped during some months. In 2016, I have been able to compress the range I had before (http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/92601-1916-13-Pounder-Case), now it is lot BHL date 22 2 16 logo still CC and lot BTJ date 25 8 16 with a new logo CCO. (pics 6&7).
During a part of this period in the line of prodution with the number 6 the S in the logo is omitted, first I have: lot DLB date 5 11 16 but I think the date is wrong if we want that this lot is at his place in the serie, we must admitt that the good date is 11 5 16, I have also the lot DLI with the good date 11 5 16. The logo is then CCC in mai and then CC from mai to the last I have: lot ENM date 10 7 16. But it is not 100% true, I have the lot DLY date 16 5 16 with the logo CCS.( picts 8,9,10).At the end of 1916 the two series are very far away one apart the other. The last I have with the number 6 is HOH date 20 12 16 and with the number 8 CLY date 5 12 16.
In 1917 no particular thing, except that the prodution with the 6 is very more important than the one with the 8. At the end of 1917 the last lots I have are : with the 6 RIK date 17 11 17, with the 8 FVG date 26 12 17.( pics 11&12).
I have never seen a Canadian case of 18 Pr dated 1918.
Regards,
Dandebur.