47mm ID questions

[Burney Davis]

Pictured below are a ‘pair’ of 47mm marked shell cases. They are both 47 x 198mm.



I say pair ‘pair’ loosely as on closer examination the base and rim are different.



The rim diameter on the one is 59mm and on the other is circa 2mm narrower.

Points to note:
I have never seen two cases which are obviously different being marked the same on the base without some differing mark number. How could they fit in the same gun chamber? Is it possible they were testing the cases on different types of breech?
The designation is in MM, not standard for British guns or ammunition, so possibly a foreign contract case or experimental?
The case length on both is exactly the same at 198mm.
There is no crows foot mark.
The Lot ‘number’ is K, as is the mark on the primer. So what does ‘K’ indicate?
One of the cases is fired but there is no filling indicated.
The crimp marks, three stabs, on the one case corresponds exactly to the cannelure of the 3pr projectiles of the period.

Around this time there were many experiments being conducted so perhaps this is one of them. A short case for tanks perhaps, thinking of a predecessor of the 3pr 2cwt. They are very similar to the 47/32mm Italian tank / anti-tank case but slightly longer with a wider base. I guess it is possible that someone has simply lathed down the base of the second case but there is no evidence that this has been done, and why would anyone go to the effort of doing so?

As always any comments greatly appreciated.

 

[Hoeksel]

Seems like UK export to me, they typically used letters like K. They remind me of 47x202R59 cases for the 1.85 inch Nordenfelt. I once traded such a case with M8owner.

 

[tigbrand]

I would assume they are not for British use, but export, you will have seen the VSM A used on 2pdr cases and primers and old shot and shell was asking this question a while back. I had a case marked so. I dont think K is the lot but a gun type, and I think the lot number is missing, as you say 47mm and no crows foot means not British,so my guess is as you say some sort of trial for an export weapon or modification of an existing type. May be worth asking at the Vickers archive? Just my thoughts, never seen a case like it before though! Tig.

 

[Tony Williams]

Around this time there were many experiments being conducted so perhaps this is one of them. A short case for tanks perhaps, thinking of a predecessor of the 3pr 2cwt. They are very similar to the 47/32mm Italian tank / anti-tank case but slightly longer with a wider base.

Vickers did sell some tanks with a short 47 mm gun in the 1920s or early 30s, to a country in Eastern Europe (Poland or Romania, I think). The cases were straight, but around 186 mm long. The Austrian Böhler 47 mm guns, available in various case lengths from 186 to 235 mm depending on the country who bought them (Italy being probably the biggest user) were basically very similar, but came along in the mid-1930s after the Vickers gun. So maybe your cases represent a couple of trial stages in developing Vickers' short tank gun (the long 3 pdr used in the Vickers Medium tank measures 351 mm, a very different beast.

 

[Burney Davis]

I would assume they are not for British use, but export, you will have seen the VSM A used on 2pdr cases and primers and old shot and shell was asking this question a while back. I had a case marked so. I dont think K is the lot but a gun type, and I think the lot number is missing, as you say 47mm and no crows foot means not British,so my guess is as you say some sort of trial for an export weapon or modification of an existing type. May be worth asking at the Vickers archive? Just my thoughts, never seen a case like it before though! Tig.

Hi Tig

I don't think the K is the gun type as I have seen the 'K' marked primers in 2pr cases that have been marked 40 m/m as well. I didn't know that the Vickers archive was available to the public - where is it, do you know?

Cheers