Ammunition collectors condition on GB Firearms Certificates

[exat808]

I am preparing a guidance document for Police FEO/ELO's that will deal with some potentially conflicting issues between what the Firearms Act will permit and what the explosives storage regulations (MSER) will allow.

I am aware that there are many variations in the wording of these conditions particularly in respect of maximum calibre ( 20 or 30mm is common however some are unspecified), and also of the quantities to be acquired on any one occasion and of the maximum number of live rounds to be kept.
As part of my research I would like to ask BOCN members who have such a condition on their FAC's if they would be prepared to submit ( by PM please) brief details of their FAC collectors condition. I am not interested in which Force issued the FAC as ultimately the wording is down to each Chief Officer. Responses will be kept in confidence and I will publish my guidance document on BOCN in due course.
Many thanks.

 

[exat808]

Thanks to all the PM responses so far. Please keep replying to this thread.

 

[exat808]

Draft guide for collectors attached. Would welcome any comments please.

 

[TonyE]

I think for this to be of any use to collectors, it is necessary to define what counts as "explosive", e.g. all propellants? Is black powder treated differently to nitro? etc., etc. It will also need further explanation of the UN codes. Whilst most SAA falls into UN Group 12, not everybody knows that, or what the other groups are.

It is a good first draft, but you are writing from the perspective of someone who understands the regulations and thus knows the various categories and sub categories. Most collectors would not have a clue if items in their collection were one group otr another.

I am also slightly confused as to the purpose of your document. In your initial post you stated that it was for the guidance of Firearms Officers and similar, yet the draft is addressed to collectors. Whilst there should obviously be a common understanding of the legal requirements, ths drafting would probably differ in emphasis between the two.

I think we have had a discussion about quantities before, but if one takes an average charge of 35 grains of propellant in a .303 inch round, then one would need in excess of 6,500 live rounds to reach the 15 Kg limit. If collecting pistol ammunition with perhaps 5 grains per round then we are talking tens of thousands of rounds. I suspect that there are very few people who are likely to exceed these quantities.

All of the above meant in a constructive way,

Regards
TonyE

 

[exat808]

I think for this to be of any use to collectors, it is necessary to define what counts as "explosive", e.g. all propellants? Is black powder treated differently to nitro? etc., etc. It will also need further explanation of the UN codes. Whilst most SAA falls into UN Group 12, not everybody knows that, or what the other groups are.

It is a good first draft, but you are writing from the perspective of someone who understands the regulations and thus knows the various categories and sub categories. Most collectors would not have a clue if items in their collection were one group otr another.

I am also slightly confused as to the purpose of your document. In your initial post you stated that it was for the guidance of Firearms Officers and similar, yet the draft is addressed to collectors. Whilst there should obviously be a common understanding of the legal requirements, ths drafting would probably differ in emphasis between the two.

I think we have had a discussion about quantities before, but if one takes an average charge of 35 grains of propellant in a .303 inch round, then one would need in excess of 6,500 live rounds to reach the 15 Kg limit. If collecting pistol ammunition with perhaps 5 grains per round then we are talking tens of thousands of rounds. I suspect that there are very few people who are likely to exceed these quantities.

All of the above meant in a constructive way,

Regards
TonyE

Thank you Tony. This was a first draft put together this morning. The final version will be for Police FEO/ELO's however I felt that a collectors version may be of use too.
The definition of explosive used in MSER captures any article or substance that has a Class 1 classification under the UN system.

I will revisit the collectors document over the next few days and re-post version 2

 

[ydnum303]

The law relating to the collection of live ammunition has got a lot more convoluted in recent years. I know several collectors of live ammunition who have been licenced so to do for many years, and whose collections are extensive and include many examples of larger calibres, up to and including 30mm.

Whereas their collections have always been perfectly legal from the point of view of the Firearms Acts, have they now become illegal under the Explosives Acts because of the quantities of propellant involved? Does it mean that "the authorities" (whoever they are) are likely to arrive un-announced on the doorstep with a view to confiscating all or some of the collection if they believe that some new (or relatively new) provision is not being complied with?

If the Police are perfectly satisfied to allow a collector to possess x-thousand rounds of assorted calibres up to 30mm, why should some other body suddenly think there is a problem? Sounds like civil servants looking to expand their empires at the collectors expense.

R.

 

[exat808]

My purpose in starting this thread was to do some research that will assist me in producing some guidance for Police FEO/ELO's who come into contact with FAC holders who collect ammunition. My thoughts initially are that there will be very few people around the country who are likely to be inadvertently breaching the explosive storage regulations. If only small arms ammunition or other ammunition with inert or non-HE projectiles is kept then any licensing issue sits with the Local Authority (Trading Standards or Fire Service).
Please avoid conspiracy theories. My work will not increase the likelihood of un-announced visits nor is it empire building. It is simply an excercise being conducted by myself at the request of a small number of police FEO/ELO's around the country.

 

[Charlie]

Don't forget to take into account any other explosives on site. If i remember correctly small arms ammo is 1.4G BUT if you store it on the same site as 1.3G it all becomes 1.3G and therefore lowers your NEC limit. (p.s. some fireworks are 1.3G !!!!!!)

C.

 

[smle2009]

Thankyou exact808,I would welcome a collectors version of this,I would also welcome a document that would clear up the(sec 5) AP rules for once and all.
I have been informed of so many conflicting versions of this and even know of a prosecution case that got 'thrown out' because the CPS couldn't get 'their heads round it'
examples are;
legal/illegal if the projectile has been fired
legal/illegal if it has a drive band
legal/illegal if over a certain calibre
legal/illegal if a solid shot ie 20mm Hispano ect

Cheers
Tony

 

[TonyE]

Until exat808 answers, my take on your questions are as follows:

The Firearms Act makes it quite clear that it is the projectile that is prohibited. It does not mention anything about fired or unfired so therefore the same rules apply to both.

There is no mention of drive bands; however the Act states in Section 5 (1A) with regard to penetrating ammunition:

(e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;

Since most rounds with driving bands do not have a jacket the prohibition would not apply. There is a grey area though with discarding sabot projectiles with a separate core. It could be argued that the sabot is a jacket.

There is no mention of calibre, but by default the use of a jacket is the important criteria and this excludes most large calibre projectiles.

The same argument applies to 20mm Hispano solid shot. However, I think Hispano AP Mark III would fall within the Act because it has an aluminium jacket.


I will be interested to hear exat's views.

Regards
TonyE

 

[ydnum303]

Exat808, if you can produce, as a result of your labours, a document which is authoratitive, informative, and accurate, for both the collecting fraternity, the Home Office, police forces, and any other official body which has an interest, and which all parties above mentioned accept is an accurate and logical interpretation of the law, you will have performed a useful service.

However, as a result of my own experiences in the past I remain to be convinced that individual police forces will not continue to interpret the law as they wish, rather than as it stands.

In addition, if someone in a police firearms department, being aware of the provisions as allowable quantities of explosives, sees that person X is allowed to possess a large quantity of ammunition for collecting purposes, it would not surprise me at all if they then contacted the relevant authority to say that X can keep large quantities of ammunition, and should be investigated. Paranoid?? Maybe, but certainly a bit cynical!

 

[exat808]

Don't forget to take into account any other explosives on site. If i remember correctly small arms ammo is 1.4G BUT if you store it on the same site as 1.3G it all becomes 1.3G and therefore lowers your NEC limit. (p.s. some fireworks are 1.3G !!!!!!)

C.

Thank you Charlie. You are correct about all explosives on the "site" which has a specific definition in MSER - namely the whole area under the control of the same person. So if you are comfortably working within the un-licensed limits of MSER and bring home a box of fireworks for Guy Fawks night or New Years Eve then potentially you could be in breach of MSER. And yes you are correct in the statement that if you have explosive articles of various Hazard Types (once again as per MSER) then the net explosive content is assumed to be in the Hazard Type that presents the greatest hazard.

SMLE2009 said "Thankyou exact808,I would welcome a collectors version of this,I would also welcome a document that would clear up the(sec 5) AP rules for once and all.
I have been informed of so many conflicting versions of this and even know of a prosecution case that got 'thrown out' because the CPS couldn't get 'their heads round it'
examples are;
legal/illegal if the projectile has been fired
legal/illegal if it has a drive band
legal/illegal if over a certain calibre
legal/illegal if a solid shot ie 20mm Hispano ect

Cheers
Tony"


Section 5 throws up many questions as to what is captured or not by the various sub-sections. Sadly, unlike explosives legislation which has many definitions to rely upon, firearms law relies largely upon stated case law for definitions or for the opinion of HO Firearms Department which may be a long time coming.. I can only give an opinion on Sect 5 and will put a discussion paper together on that matter at some point ( I have a busy work schedule).