nathanieljr
Well-Known Member
Hello all!
I have been struggling with this one for a while now. I can't seem to find much information on British naval 6 inch ammunition or markings of said ammunition for the BL XXIII gun, used on most WW2 light cruisers.
Navweaps, usually excellent on these matters, lists only HE or CPBC ammunition, and gives no Mk numbers for either. However, SAP shells seem to exist, at least today if not in WW2.
HMS Belfast has its mock SAP projectiles painted in red and green, with a small fuze at the tip (presumably for dye bags). Marked as a 'K' shell (what does that mean?), it has no Mk number or dates on it, at least not where they should be. Has 8/31 stencilled but I doubt that is correct.
It also has a few that are a little different, in one of the turrets.
Fort Siloso in Singapore had older guns, Mk VIIs, and so is not directly comparable. However, their ammunition seems to follow a more normal pattern of naval markings, buff coloured overall with stripes and stencils.
This series of markings is used on most surviving UK 15" shells, and 8" shells.
In Portsmouth, an 8" shell in normal colours, next to a red and green 6" SAP Mk 2B without nose fuze.
Elsewhere in Portsmouth, a red and green 6" shell with nose fuze (bottom of photo, sorry not my photo)
In the New Zealand naval museum the River Plate exhibit has mock ups of 6" and 8" shells, in buff colours.
These pictures are from HMS Rodney's 6" guns, which were a different Mk, but also 50 cal and WW2 era. Projectiles appear uniformly (buff?) coloured, some nose fuzed some not.
Pictures from the inside of HMAS Hobart show buff coloured shells, some with nose fuzes, some hard to tell. The colouring is corroborated by a wartime painting of the inside of the turret.
(taken from here http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/Report/images/PTE.005.0142.pdf) Some may be HE but i would doubt all were HE as mostly British ships carried almost all APC/CPBC. This is especially true of the ready rounds clipped inside the turret, as these were there in case of an emergency where the power hoists were damaged and the ship needed to maintain fire. This would be unlikely to need HE (normally used for bombardment work) as the ship could simply withdraw from the range of the shore guns to fix the damage. It would make sense for them to be CPBC shells for attacking an enemy ship that can pursue as the hoists struggle to get back to work.
Here sailors on HMCS Uganda prepare to bombard Truk in 1945. Almost certainly HE, these shells are nose fuzed and appear buff coloured.
BR 932, the 1945 handbook on ammunition, shows 15" and 8" AP as buff coloured (8" with nose fuze for dye bags), and 6" CPBC Mk XXXV (from 1943) as buff coloured without nose fuze.
Anther schematic, from Cyber Heritage, shows a 6" CPBC from 1933 as looking buff coloured (well, one colour overall anyway) without nose fuze. I can find no record of the existence of a MK XXIB gun, only a Mk XXI that saw relatively little use.
Also from Cyber Heritage, 'from the mid 40's to 50's', this appears to explain the red and green markings on the preserved 6 inch SAP shells in HMS Belfast and Portsmouth, and may indicate they were from the post war period. Anyone know what the K is about?
And a final spanner in the works. This picture, from the Australian war archives, shows sailors loading ammunition for HMAS Sydney. These shells appear all over dark (black?), and totally unlike the markings on all others so far, and have no nose fuze so are likely to be CPBC shells. (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/001645/)
Can anyone help? What marks of shells were used in the Mk XXIII guns? What colours were they painted in WW2? When were SAP shells used? Were they nose fuzed with dye bags, or plain?
Cant seem to find specifics in general ordnance manuals, nor can I find a specific manual dealing with it.
I have been struggling with this one for a while now. I can't seem to find much information on British naval 6 inch ammunition or markings of said ammunition for the BL XXIII gun, used on most WW2 light cruisers.
Navweaps, usually excellent on these matters, lists only HE or CPBC ammunition, and gives no Mk numbers for either. However, SAP shells seem to exist, at least today if not in WW2.
HMS Belfast has its mock SAP projectiles painted in red and green, with a small fuze at the tip (presumably for dye bags). Marked as a 'K' shell (what does that mean?), it has no Mk number or dates on it, at least not where they should be. Has 8/31 stencilled but I doubt that is correct.
It also has a few that are a little different, in one of the turrets.
Fort Siloso in Singapore had older guns, Mk VIIs, and so is not directly comparable. However, their ammunition seems to follow a more normal pattern of naval markings, buff coloured overall with stripes and stencils.
This series of markings is used on most surviving UK 15" shells, and 8" shells.
In Portsmouth, an 8" shell in normal colours, next to a red and green 6" SAP Mk 2B without nose fuze. Elsewhere in Portsmouth, a red and green 6" shell with nose fuze (bottom of photo, sorry not my photo)In the New Zealand naval museum the River Plate exhibit has mock ups of 6" and 8" shells, in buff colours.
These pictures are from HMS Rodney's 6" guns, which were a different Mk, but also 50 cal and WW2 era. Projectiles appear uniformly (buff?) coloured, some nose fuzed some not.
Pictures from the inside of HMAS Hobart show buff coloured shells, some with nose fuzes, some hard to tell. The colouring is corroborated by a wartime painting of the inside of the turret.
(taken from here http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/Report/images/PTE.005.0142.pdf) Some may be HE but i would doubt all were HE as mostly British ships carried almost all APC/CPBC. This is especially true of the ready rounds clipped inside the turret, as these were there in case of an emergency where the power hoists were damaged and the ship needed to maintain fire. This would be unlikely to need HE (normally used for bombardment work) as the ship could simply withdraw from the range of the shore guns to fix the damage. It would make sense for them to be CPBC shells for attacking an enemy ship that can pursue as the hoists struggle to get back to work.
Here sailors on HMCS Uganda prepare to bombard Truk in 1945. Almost certainly HE, these shells are nose fuzed and appear buff coloured.
BR 932, the 1945 handbook on ammunition, shows 15" and 8" AP as buff coloured (8" with nose fuze for dye bags), and 6" CPBC Mk XXXV (from 1943) as buff coloured without nose fuze.
Anther schematic, from Cyber Heritage, shows a 6" CPBC from 1933 as looking buff coloured (well, one colour overall anyway) without nose fuze. I can find no record of the existence of a MK XXIB gun, only a Mk XXI that saw relatively little use.
Also from Cyber Heritage, 'from the mid 40's to 50's', this appears to explain the red and green markings on the preserved 6 inch SAP shells in HMS Belfast and Portsmouth, and may indicate they were from the post war period. Anyone know what the K is about?
And a final spanner in the works. This picture, from the Australian war archives, shows sailors loading ammunition for HMAS Sydney. These shells appear all over dark (black?), and totally unlike the markings on all others so far, and have no nose fuze so are likely to be CPBC shells. (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/001645/)
Can anyone help? What marks of shells were used in the Mk XXIII guns? What colours were they painted in WW2? When were SAP shells used? Were they nose fuzed with dye bags, or plain?
Cant seem to find specifics in general ordnance manuals, nor can I find a specific manual dealing with it.
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