Destiny of seized inert hand grenades

[Miguel_1960]

Hello,

Please, I would like to know the destiny of deactivated and inert hand grenades seized by the Royal Mail or by the British Customs. Do they return it to sender or is destroyed?. In this second case is possible to obtain a official document as a proof of that procedure ?. I am talking about international shipment from the UK to Spain.

Thanks in advance,

Miguel.-

 

[Millsman]

I had some grenades seized at the Heathrow Sorting Office on their way to Italy a couple of years ago. I ask for them to be returned and it was like talking to a stone wall. I got no information and written replies came back with a standard response about prohibited goods. Gone to ordnance heaven....

John

 

[Miguel_1960]

Thanks John,

I ordered two F1 hand grenades on last January -two separate packets sent by RM Signed for surface mail- and in a month or so only one of them arrived ... the other one was declared being lost. Now I have ordered four Russian F1 hand grenades from FSU Connection sent on passed 26 of June by RM Signed for surface mail. On the RM mail web appears its tracking number as dispatched to Spain the next day but on the spanish mail web its tracking number does not exist. I cross my fingers.

 

[StielGr]

I have had two different experiences over the last 5 years.

The first was a solid 2 pdr projectile and case. It was sent from Germany to UK and when it arrived in Coventry at the international depot someone called the experts. A few months later the spender got the empty package back with a letter to say the item had been lifted....(I can only assume either to the scrap metal bin or the exhibits cabinet)

In the second case the parcels which contained a KwK 42 case and a 7.5cm projectile had been cut open for examination and then allowed to proceed.

PC

 

[Millsman]

I did hear much later that with my parcel the Post Centre had been shut whilst the package was investigated so maybe mine ended up at the nearest EOD collection.

I don't send stuff overseas anymore. Not worth the risk or disappointment. John

 

[Bonnex]

Hello,

Please, I would like to know the destiny of deactivated and inert hand grenades seized by the Royal Mail or by the British Customs. Do they return it to sender or is destroyed?. In this second case is possible to obtain a official document as a proof of that procedure ?. I am talking about international shipment from the UK to Spain.

Thanks in advance,

Miguel.-

I expect the chances of getting a destruction certificate are low. The extra cost and ongoing administration would be an unfair burden on the organisations involved (not to mention the British taxpayer). By the the time the object has been dealt with by EOD it would have already caused costly disruption at the sorting office and some anxiety amongst the postal staff; the Police would have probably been involved; the Police would have initiated a call on the relevant Operations Room and an EOD team dispatched. The two man team could have a round trip of over 100 miles to attend the task. If they decide to dispose of it locally by explosive demolition then a cordon would likely have to be established around the disposal site by the Police. The cost of Service demolition stores is considerable. When the team gets back to base it has equipment to 'last parade', reports to write and probably gets home in the middle of night crawling into bed without seeing the wife/husband or the children who waited up for as long as they could.

So, maybe twenty people were involved in the task. Operations at the sorting office were held up for about 4 hours. Fuel, vehicle wear and tear, explosives stores, mobile phone calls added to the costs and little Jimmy didn't see his father that day - and you want a chit! Unlikely my friend.

 

[millsbomber]

As a last resort now i use couriers, more expensive but your item is tracked and you always know where it is in the UK, over seas is a no no for me now, its just not worth the loss of a item, cost and possible visit, times have changed and we have to change with them its a fact of life,,,,,,,,,, Dave

 

[Miguel_1960]

Hello,

Uhhhmmm ...... So am I touched and almost sunk ? :tinysmile_angry2_t: :tinysmile_shutup_t2 :tinysmile_cry_t4: :sad:

Thanks,

Miguel.

 

[Miguel_1960]

I expect the chances of getting a destruction certificate are low. The extra cost and ongoing administration would be an unfair burden on the organisations involved (not to mention the British taxpayer). By the the time the object has been dealt with by EOD it would have already caused costly disruption at the sorting office and some anxiety amongst the postal staff; the Police would have probably been involved; the Police would have initiated a call on the relevant Operations Room and an EOD team dispatched. The two man team could have a round trip of over 100 miles to attend the task. If they decide to dispose of it locally by explosive demolition then a cordon would likely have to be established around the disposal site by the Police. The cost of Service demolition stores is considerable. When the team gets back to base it has equipment to 'last parade', reports to write and probably gets home in the middle of night crawling into bed without seeing the wife/husband or the children who waited up for as long as they could.

So, maybe twenty people were involved in the task. Operations at the sorting office were held up for about 4 hours. Fuel, vehicle wear and tear, explosives stores, mobile phone calls added to the costs and little Jimmy didn't see his father that day - and you want a chit! Unlikely my friend.

Je, je, I suppose that your response is fine british humor and irony cos that fact did not appear on The Guardian or on The Sun. As you told it is a good new.

Thanks,

Miguel.-

 

[Miguel_1960]

As a last resort now i use couriers, more expensive but your item is tracked and you always know where it is in the UK, over seas is a no no for me now, its just not worth the loss of a item, cost and possible visit, times have changed and we have to change with them its a fact of life,,,,,,,,,, Dave

Ufffhh ... I live in Tenerife, in the Canary Islands, and the costs of couriers are out of this World. From my point of view, when times changes to forbids a until then a abolutely legal merchandise, it is not a fact of life .... better said is a recoil against the modern world and against our freedom.

Thanks,

Miguel.-

 

[US-Subs]

Je, je, I suppose that your response is fine british humor and irony cos that fact did not appear on The Guardian or on The Sun. As you told it is a good new.

Thanks,

Miguel.-

No, unless I miss my guess it is not intended as humor - though maybe a little tongue in cheek. It is in fact, quite accurate, and not only for the UK. For the several agencies involved with every call of this type it is a pain in the ass, for many of them it can be very difficult to deal with. Until the final disposition by the EOD techs at the very end of the incident, nobody knows for certain what the material is or the hazard that it represents, so it has to be treated as if it is live. As Bonnex explained, resolution can typically take all day, or in the case of my home area, several days (EOD team with responsibility for this area has a 14 hour response time, if they leave right away). Throughout the process nearly the last person anyone listens to is the owner, if they are involved at all. The owner typically has a vested interest in the process - value of the item, avoiding prosecution, etc., and many had no idea what they had in the first place.

Once the EOD team arrives they want to do the job and go home. The liklihood that the piece is returned to the owner is very low - most teams have seen occasions where they have responded twice or three different times for the same piece - once it happens the first time you make sure it cannot happen again. Nobody in this entire process wants to give out a piece of paper to the owner. There is always some idiot that, after causing this entire issue through negligence/ignorance/carelessness etc wants to go to court to get their toys back.

I say this as both a collector and someone that has worked in and around the response side for pretty much all of my life. These incidents occur much more often than most people realize and cause a drain on local resources at least as much as Bonnex explains. The moral of the story is that it is up to you as the collector to make the effort to get your pieces home intact, and live with the loss if it doesn't make it home. I've got a collector driving 700 miles to pick up some pieces from me next weekend, then catching some sleep and driving 700 miles back. He knows he will get his items, and has high certainty he will get them home. If it is important to you then find someone to help.

 

[pzgr40]

I do not know how people send their stuff around, but I suppose it is also a matter of HOW it is send. If you send a shell or grenade with the fuze on, it clearly shows the shape on the X ray. Take it fully apart, and the shape is more difficult to recognize and instantaniously alarm the person behind the X-ray. It may still be opened , but I think there is a difference between standing with a hand full of loose parts (of which everybody can see they are inert, either standing with a parcel with a complete item in your hands , in which case the parcel will not even be opened). I have send a few cutaway models around the world, and every time I got the same reply; the parcel was opened , reclosed, but all ended up with the new owner.

 

[Miguel_1960]

No, unless I miss my guess it is not intended as humor - though maybe a little tongue in cheek. It is in fact, quite accurate, and not only for the UK. For the several agencies involved with every call of this type it is a pain in the ass, for many of them it can be very difficult to deal with. Until the final disposition by the EOD techs at the very end of the incident, nobody knows for certain what the material is or the hazard that it represents, so it has to be treated as if it is live. As Bonnex explained, resolution can typically take all day, or in the case of my home area, several days (EOD team with responsibility for this area has a 14 hour response time, if they leave right away). Throughout the process nearly the last person anyone listens to is the owner, if they are involved at all. The owner typically has a vested interest in the process - value of the item, avoiding prosecution, etc., and many had no idea what they had in the first place.

Once the EOD team arrives they want to do the job and go home. The liklihood that the piece is returned to the owner is very low - most teams have seen occasions where they have responded twice or three different times for the same piece - once it happens the first time you make sure it cannot happen again. Nobody in this entire process wants to give out a piece of paper to the owner. There is always some idiot that, after causing this entire issue through negligence/ignorance/carelessness etc wants to go to court to get their toys back.

I say this as both a collector and someone that has worked in and around the response side for pretty much all of my life. These incidents occur much more often than most people realize and cause a drain on local resources at least as much as Bonnex explains. The moral of the story is that it is up to you as the collector to make the effort to get your pieces home intact, and live with the loss if it doesn't make it home. I've got a collector driving 700 miles to pick up some pieces from me next weekend, then catching some sleep and driving 700 miles back. He knows he will get his items, and has high certainty he will get them home. If it is important to you then find someone to help.

OK. Very good explanation. I admire the work of EOD.

From my point of view the public employees that make that regulation -mainly from police departments or Home Office, FBI or Interior Ministry in Spain- are terrible mistaken cos, after 52 years on this World, still I have not heard about IRA, ETA, RAF, Brigatta Rossa, Al Qaeda and others groups sending explicit explosives through the mail or into the luggage. When they need to kill they deeply disguise their artefacts. To carry knives on airplanes was banned 30 years ago or so and during the 11-S the criminals used ..... cutters. In Spain is a fact that 99 per cent of killings or injuries made by a edge weapon are using kithchen knives but police only have interest on bayonets, folders, knucle knives, combat & military knives and a you can buy or send a kitchen knife everywhere without any type of trouble.

In my honest opinion, that type of human behavior induced by politicians is like a "sweet fascism". Do you know that phrase of a General destined in Vietnam during the 60s: "We needed to destroy the village to save the village" ?. This matter of inert ordnance is the same.

After all, europeans and -mainly- north americans, have to understand that if terrorism groups want to blow up a buliding, a tower, a bridge or a train, for name only a few, they will try to do that using home made explosives or, better said, non conventional explosives.

Miguel.-

 

[Miguel_1960]

I do not know how people send their stuff around, but I suppose it is also a matter of HOW it is send. If you send a shell or grenade with the fuze on, it clearly shows the shape on the X ray. Take it fully apart, and the shape is more difficult to recognize and instantaniously alarm the person behind the X-ray. It may still be opened , but I think there is a difference between standing with a hand full of loose parts (of which everybody can see they are inert, either standing with a parcel with a complete item in your hands , in which case the parcel will not even be opened). I have send a few cutaway models around the world, and every time I got the same reply; the parcel was opened , reclosed, but all ended up with the new owner.

In my cases fuzes were disambled and shipped in a different packet and a different date than the bodies of the hand grenades .....

 

[pzgr40]

Ok, just wondering....
regards, DJH

 

[Tietrack]

In the case of a grenade maybe sending two parcels might squeeze through customs. Body in one & the fuze in the other. You guys in Europe seem to have a much greater supply of inert ord then here in the US but because of the customs thing, I'm leery about ordering anything from overseas.

 

[Big Al]

A friend of mone ordered an aluminum dummy of a WWI French grenade from France. Apperently it was seized by Canadian customs and when he recieved the item in the mail the EOD people had fired a round in it. The hole in the grnade clearly showed it was solid aluminium.

 

[pzgr40]

In the case of a grenade maybe sending two parcels might squeeze through customs. Body in one & the fuze in the other. You guys in Europe seem to have a much greater supply of inert ord then here in the US but because of the customs thing, I'm leery about ordering anything from overseas.

Stop complaining; you have some very nice stuff for sale too (however, not cheap),

http://www.gunbroker.com/Large-Bore-Inert-Cannon-Ammo/BI.aspx

and I've seen pictures of collectors meetings in the USA where I saw stuff ( us submubitions fi.) that made my mouth water, and are hardly obtainable over here.
It's a pitty that there is no chance of some international agreement/system upon licenced collectors sending stuff overseas with some permit system.

Regards, DJH