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Early Mills Det tin

Millsman

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've just been fortuneate enough to acquire for my collection one of the early det tins made for the Belgian Army. The Belgians used the Mills No5 in 1916 as a rifle grenade with their 8mm Lebel rifles. Morum & Co made the base plugs with the larger central hole for the bigger rod. WW1 det tins are rare, but these are super rare.

The tin is marked on the base IV No 124 Nobel, and still has some of the cardboard inner tubes for the dets.

The good news is that I have two but the second one is not cheap. PM me if interested.

Joh
 

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I've just been fortuneate enough to acquire for my collection one of the early det tins made for the Belgian Army. The Belgians used the Mills No5 in 1916 as a rifle grenade with their 8mm Lebel rifles. Morum & Co made the base plugs with the larger central hole for the bigger rod. WW1 det tins are rare, but these are super rare.

Joh


John,

The rods used on the Morum plugs are the same diameter as the rods used on the standard base plugs - photos attached of the two types. Both rods are quite genuine.

I don't suppose you have a photo of the grenade cup used on said 8mm Lebel...?



Tom.
 

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Mills detonator tin

How about this one Millsman???? Okay? Dano
P.S. I know less than nothing about these, which makes sense when you don't think about it!! Dano
 

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2.94 to 2.96 the same Tom? Look like the difference between 7.7mm (.303) and 8mm Lebel. Nice rods by the way.

John
 
2.94 to 2.96 the same Tom? Look like the difference between 7.7mm (.303) and 8mm Lebel. Nice rods by the way.

John


FFS John, the difference between 7.7mm and 8mm is actually 0.3mm, which in Imperial is almost 12 thou.

The measurements shown are 0.294 inches and 0.296 inches - a difference of 2 thousandths of an inch. (If you look you will see the "Morum" rod is actually the smaller of the two.) Even the spec for the standard rod allows me +/- 2.5 thou tolerance for the "same" rod.


So, I don't suppose you have any photo or anything re the Lebel...?


Tom.
 

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Belgian 8mm Lebel? The standard Belgian rifle was the 7.65 x 53mm Mauser M1899.I would be interested to know your reference for the Belgian use of the Lebel.

Regards
TonyE
 
Tony

The term 8mm seems to be casually used to describe the Belgian Lebel. However the detail does seem to indicate a small difference in size between the rods? 2 thou - Tom?

John
 
Sorry, but my point is that the Belgians did not use the Lebel, they used the 7.65mm Mauser. I doubt if anybody would use "8mm" to describe a 7.65mm weapon.

As for the difference in dimensions on the rods, the drawing shows a tolerance of 5 thou., although your rods are slightly below the LOW limit. That may be because they were made for the 7.65mm bore of the Belgian Mauser, although I will have to check bore dimensions.

Interestingly, the HIGH limit on the drawing of the .303 inch rod would be a pretty tight fit in a new barrel at the low end of tolerance, say .301-.302

Regards
TonyE
 
Tony,

I'm in complete agreement with you regarding the terminology, and the rifle used by the Belgian Army.

The Belgians were supplied with Mills bombs by the British Government, ultimately on a rolling demand of 20,000 per month (compare that with British demands of 350,000-700,000 per week). However, I have seen no evidence for the Belgians using them as rifle grenades, and I know of no cup attachment made for the 7.65mm Mauser. That's why I keep asking and hoping someone will provide...

As for the rods shown, the standard rod is 0.2965" - bang on low end tolerance. The Morum rod is as you say below low end, but I've added a photo of a better example, measured at 0.3005".

Though the rod high limit would indeed be tight in a new rifle, my understanding is that older worn rifles were given over to grenade launching; once a few grenades had been fired the bore would certainly have grown a little under the higher barrel pressures.


Tom.
 

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As you know Tom, I am a small arms/ammunition man, not grenades (although I do have a couple for my SMLE) so I am not really qualified to comment on the Belgian use. However, like you I know of no cup discharger for their Mauser!

Cheers
TonyE
 
I think it was because the earlier French Rifles were 11mm the Lebel is often called the 8mm and I'm sure I've seen it in writing a few times. There is also an 8mm Lebel pistol.

However this is way off topic now. Thanks

John
 
Obviously my earlier posts were insufficiently clear.

My point is that the French army used the Lebel rifle and it IS in 8x50mm calibre. You have refered in your posts to the Belgian use of the Lebel and I asked for your evidence of this as their standard rifle was the Mauser in 7.65x53mm calibre. The Lebel cartridge was based on the previous French rifle which was indeed in 11mm calibre but that was the Gras and not relevent to my question.

There were grenade cartridges made for the Belgian Mauser but I am not sure how they were used.

With regards to the pistol cartridge you mention, that was the 8mm Model 1892 French Ordnance revolver and is often mistakenly refered to as the "8mm Lebel" even though Lebel was not responsible for the design.

I do not think it is "way off topic" to ask for a clarification of a statement made.

Regards
TonyE
 
Going back to the first post, I'd be grateful for clarification of the statement that the Belgians used the Mills No.5 as a rifle grenade - whether in a Lebel or a Mauser.

Morum & Co. had an initial contract (No.2878, date 1.6.16, placed by Trench Warfare Dept) for 100,000 plugs and 100,000 rods, and these formed part of an overall order for 200,000 plugs and rods to be shipped to the British Army in France - for converting No.5 Mills into rifle launched grenades. The No.23 MkI grenade, hand and rifle, was slowly being produced but numbers needed to be supplemented by conversion of some No.5.

In May 1916 three patterns of rifle cup were ordered for trial - for the short rifle, the long rifle and the Ross. From a TW Supplies Dept report, "Instructions have been received to prepare 1,000,000 Mills' grenades with attachment for firing from a rifle. This demand involves the provision of special base plugs, 5-inch rods, and blank cartridges; also 35,000 cups for attachment to the rifle of three different patterns." In late June 1916 a TWSD report update has, "The demand for cups for the long and Ross rifles has been cancelled, so that the only cup now required is for the short rifle."

The point here (and somewhat laboured it may be) is that different launcher cup designs were required for the different rifles, and they took design and trials time and effort to produce. Hence I'd be interested to learn of developments for foreign rifles, because it is an area of which I am completely ignorant.

The statement of foreign use in a foreign rifle was made. It's a little odd for discussion of that point to be off topic.



Tom.
 
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Thanks for that, my list of contracts is only for small arms and ammunition, not grenades.

Regards
TonyE
 
Here is a late one, from 61 if I'm reading it correctly. Not that old, not that pretty, but I'm getting bored and nobody is posting anything else.
 

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