Early Mills Det tin

[Bonnex]

Obviously my earlier posts were insufficiently clear.

My point is that the French army used the Lebel rifle and it IS in 8x50mm calibre. You have refered in your posts to the Belgian use of the Lebel and I asked for your evidence of this as their standard rifle was the Mauser in 7.65x53mm calibre. The Lebel cartridge was based on the previous French rifle which was indeed in 11mm calibre but that was the Gras and not relevent to my question.

There were grenade cartridges made for the Belgian Mauser but I am not sure how they were used.

With regards to the pistol cartridge you mention, that was the 8mm Model 1892 French Ordnance revolver and is often mistakenly refered to as the "8mm Lebel" even though Lebel was not responsible for the design.

I do not think it is "way off topic" to ask for a clarification of a statement made.

Regards
TonyE

I'm sorry I missed this interesting, and somewhat heated, thread this week. Adding two pennyworth: examples of the Hales (No 2 type) can be found marked with a 'B' (said to mean Belgium) and 8m/m*.

I'll now leave it to simmer...

[* away from my files but will try to confirm this at the weekend]

 

[Bonnex]

[...]
In May 1916 three patterns of rifle cup were ordered for trial - for the short rifle, the long rifle and the Ross. From a TW Supplies Dept report, "Instructions have been received to prepare 1,000,000 Mills' grenades with attachment for firing from a rifle. This demand involves the provision of special base plugs, 5-inch rods, and blank cartridges; also 35,000 cups for attachment to the rifle of three different patterns." In late June 1916 a TWSD report update has, "The demand for cups for the long and Ross rifles has been cancelled, so that the only cup now required is for the short rifle."
[...]
Tom.

Tom, I have a German training poster which shows the Long Rifle Cup so I assume that some of these were manufactured and got into service unless of course a trials pattern was acquired. This assumes the Long Lee Enfield got to the front line. For the benefit of others these are cups which just retain the Mills grenade lever rather than the full blown Discharger (S&B type).

 

[millsbomber]

Iv been itching to put some thing to this debate, i thought i would let it settle down a bit first.
I only have a base plug of the type were all taking about No5 .1. M&Co/L 9/16 i have measured the hole and checked if a 8mm rod would be feasible ( as Bonnex has proof the Belgium's used roded rifle grenades of 8mm, be it the No2, Hales would sell to any one) and yes it would fit the threaded hole and leave enough so there was a shoulder for the rod to fit nicely to the plug as all my other British rods fit there base plugs, i was always under the assumption that these base plugs were used by the Belgium's during WW1 with there rifles what ever thy were and launched by what ever means.
Tony E says there were Belgium Mauser Grenade cartridges made for grenade launching during WW1 what did thy launch the No2, i knew the VB Grenade with the cup dis charger fitted to the Label rifle was used.
This is a excellent post and im sure we can all find out lots of things we never knew about, verifie and dismiss other misconceptions, lets all work together........ Dave

 

[Snufkin]

... I assume that some of these were manufactured and got into service unless of course a trials pattern was acquired. This assumes the Long Lee Enfield got to the front line. .

Norman, there is of course WOLC 18695 detailing the introduction of the cup for the 1914 rifle, but I was working on the basis of the TWSD reports quoted and others (e.g. mid June 1916, "Samples of cups altered to suit all makes of rifle have been approved, and further samples are being made from the approved patterns for issue to contractors. Drawings and specifications are also being altered to agree with approved patterns.") Clearly trials versions at least were made. Did any of these alternatives to the short rifle version make it to France? I don't know.

As for the Hales rifle grenade and possible Belgian use, it's good to have some material to work with. It would be great if you could pin down the calibre; I assume the "B" marking will remain subjective, or is there a way of firming up on that?


Tom.

 

[Snufkin]

I only have a base plug of the type were all taking about No5 .1. M&Co/L 9/16 i have measured the hole and checked if a 8mm rod would be feasible ( as Bonnex has proof the Belgium's used roded rifle grenades of 8mm, be it the No2, Hales would sell to any one) and yes it would fit the threaded hole and leave enough so there was a shoulder for the rod to fit nicely to the plug as all my other British rods fit there base plugs, i was always under the assumption that these base plugs were used by the Belgium's during WW1 with there rifles what ever thy were and launched by what ever means.

Dave, as you are aware, the "standard" rod thread is 9/32" x 20tpi BSW form and the Morum & Co. thread is a 5/16 x 26 tpi cycle thread. Both are used on the British 5 1/2 inch rod, as shown in previous photos. Equally both threaded studs could be turned onto an 8mm rod; or 13mm rod; or whatever. The choice of the threaded stud is somewhat irrelevant to the diameter of the rod.

The use of a 5/16 cycle thread by Morum may have been down to convenience, or possibly being easier to tap than the alternative 9/32. Initially the base plugs for rifle use were specified as steel, and it was difficulty in tapping the steel that led to delays in production - in turn overcome by the rapid re-introduction of solid brass base plugs. (TWSD report mid July 1916, "Deliveries of grenades fitted with special base plugs are coming in very slowly to filling stations, and contractors are experiencing a good deal of difficulty in tapping the steel base plugs.")

If the Belgians had used another pattern of rifle to launch modified No.5 with thicker rod, the question then arises as to how they used the No23 MkII and 23 MkIII which formed the bulk of their 1917 and 1918 Mills' supply from Britain. The base plugs on these were the standard cast iron jobs (9/32 x20tpi threaded rod) of Hearn design.




Tom.

 

[TonyE]

One small point. Whilst I said that Belgian grenade cartridges exist, I cannot confirm that there is a WWI type as that is outside my collecting/research area. There are a couple of types, one of which is definitely WW2 and I do not have an example of the other to check the dates.

I have a friend in the US who is just about to publish a book on the Belgian Mauser so I will ask him what he knows.

regards
TonyE

 

[millsbomber]

Dave, as you are aware, the "standard" rod thread is 9/32" x 20tpi BSW form and the Morum & Co. thread is a 5/16 x 26 tpi cycle thread. Both are used on the British 5 1/2 inch rod, as shown in previous photos. Equally both threaded studs could be turned onto an 8mm rod; or 13mm rod; or whatever. The choice of the threaded stud is somewhat irrelevant to the diameter of the rod.

The use of a 5/16 cycle thread by Morum may have been down to convenience, or possibly being easier to tap than the alternative 9/32. Initially the base plugs for rifle use were specified as steel, and it was difficulty in tapping the steel that led to delays in production - in turn overcome by the rapid re-introduction of solid brass base plugs. (TWSD report mid July 1916, "Deliveries of grenades fitted with special base plugs are coming in very slowly to filling stations, and contractors are experiencing a good deal of difficulty in tapping the steel base plugs.")

If the Belgians had used another pattern of rifle to launch modified No.5 with thicker rod, the question then arises as to how they used the No23 MkII and 23 MkIII which formed the bulk of their 1917 and 1918 Mills' supply from Britain. The base plugs on these were the standard cast iron jobs (9/32 x20tpi threaded rod) of Hearn design.




Tom.

I fully understand where your coming from Tom, as a mechanic and see failures in engineering all the time i see a problem with you saying that the thread is irreverent to the diameter of the rod, as i put in the previous post all my examples have a shoulder where the thread stops and the correct diameter of the rod starts (Picture 1), i see a reason for this as it would help to stop the rod from being fired through the base plug, if this Morum base plug did not have this shoulder on the rod as your example i am pretty confident that rod of yours would go straight through the base plug on firing, i will explain why, the rod has a point at the start of the thread, Weak point 1, the base plug has been drilled with a conventional drill ( My example has this ) weak point 2, there is only 2.83mm of brass at the lowest point in the threaded hole, weak point 3 ( my plug you can see where the drilling has forced the brass out on the underside ) there is only 6.28mm of brass thread to take all the forces of firing, in my mind its a recipe for failure, as you find out with your research Tom the problems thy faced with design.

Dave

 

[Snufkin]

Dave,

When I said that the choice of thread is somewhat irrelevant to the rod diameter, I meant from a machining perspective, physically cutting a thread.

As for a rod punching through a brass base plug, absolutely - see attached excerpt from memo from GHQ, France, to War Office. Any rod, even with a "shoulder" (as in the attached, showing Gibbons base plug) could punch through the base plug given the barrel pressure of several tons per square inch on firing. Bear in mind steel was first specified for the base plugs, only to be replaced by brass in order to expedite supply to France.

Ultimately the solution was the Hearn and Galer cast iron plug and the No.23 MkII.



Tom

 

[staples57]

Wow! Fantastic find there John. Well done.
I've only seen photos of WW1 Mills Det. Tins, nice to here that there are a few still out there.

Cheers,
Brad

 

[Bonnex]

Norman, there is of course WOLC 18695 detailing the introduction of the cup for the 1914 rifle, but I was working on the basis of the TWSD reports quoted and others (e.g. mid June 1916, "Samples of cups altered to suit all makes of rifle have been approved, and further samples are being made from the approved patterns for issue to contractors. Drawings and specifications are also being altered to agree with approved patterns.") Clearly trials versions at least were made. Did any of these alternatives to the short rifle version make it to France? I don't know.

As for the Hales rifle grenade and possible Belgian use, it's good to have some material to work with. It would be great if you could pin down the calibre; I assume the "B" marking will remain subjective, or is there a way of firming up on that?


Tom.

Tom,

I know you know these but for the benefit of those reading this thread the drawings which show the cups are;
TW913 Attachment and Pattern for Mills Grenade from Short or Long Rifle.
TW914 ditto from Long Rifle
TW915 ditto from Ross Rifle

and the drawing that might show the Morum base plug and rod
TW912 Base Plug and Rod for Mills Grenade (Attachment)

All drawings would be dated 8th May 1916 and as far as I am aware none have yet come to light.

As for the B on the No 2 yes, it will remain subjective unless someone finds the appropriate Cotton Powder Co literature. They supplied Brazil which is another contender if indeed the mark relates to the country at all (except the Brazil cal was 7 m/m I believe).

 

[Bonnex]

Just to finish off the couple comments about cups and Hales grenades here are a couple of pretty poor photos. The German poster which apparently shows the cup for the MLE. The rifle needs TonyE's interpretation. Also on the poster is the service cup (botton right). Excuse the flash echo.

Two Photos show feintly the 8m/m B marking on the Hales (No 2 type). Given Tony's explanation about in-Service calibres I'm at a loss to know what country other than France these would have been designed for. The muzzle clutch is probably the differentiator and it is conceivable I suppose that the 'B' meant a size B clutch.

 

[Snufkin]

Norman,

The German poster is excellent. It would appear that a long rifle and cup must have been captured. Many thanks for sharing that.

Undoubtedly the No.2 rifle grenade is an 8mm example, so on the balance of probability a version for the French Lebel. I'd be inclined to agree with your view of the B marking as a model identifier rather than meaning Belgium or Brasil, but remain open to alternatives. Again, thanks for the photos of this.

Regarding the first post in this thread, and that the Belgians used the Mills No5 in 1916 as a rifle grenade etc, supporting evidence remains scant.




Tom.

 

[millsbomber]

Im on to it Tom, i know a man who can help with the original question, not paper work but examples, im a little restricted now a days.
Just to add a bit more confusion, have you ever found any papers regarding the Dunkirk Grenades, who used them as the 2 base plug examples i have one is rodded.

Dave